On Gachapon

Exile

Respected Member
Respected Member
Hello Maplers, this is my (Exile) commentary on Gachapon:

Despite the recent release of a Gachapon poll in order to gauge community opinion on how we should handle it, there have been enormous amounts of contention around the issue. Amidst this storm of memes, heated discussion in Discord, and misinformation, I am writing this post to demystify the details and explain the nuances of our planned release of vanilla Gachapon. I do hope that some of the information and logic in this post will serve to make people think harder about their decision in the gachapon poll, the feature itself, and how it effects the game and the community.

1. Gachapwned: What we forgot about vanilla Gachapon and why we never felt its impact (in old versions):

As we all know, a chief concern among community members with Gachapon is the concept of "pay-to-win", which in essence describes the ability of someone with too much money to buy into gachapon and use it to get an unfair advantage. But pay-to-win aside, even more people are worried about the fact that Gachapon is a method that introduces rare and powerful items into the game in a way that is totally unrewarding, and that barely qualifies as real or challenging gameplay. In other words, even if everyone were to get an even amount of Gachapon, and the system were totally balanced, it makes Maplestory a less rewarding and meaningful game to play by devaluing players' achievements and mitigating the importance of actual game content that provides these rewards. Even to those who are advocates of Gachapon, this is a clear issue, so I want to start by sharing some vital information about our future implementation of the system - statistical and qualitative findings that will force us to revisit this concern about gameplay from a more knowledgeable perspective.

When the heated debate first started a few days back, I began to look at item probabilities to assess the nature of old Gachapon, and I found that vanilla Gachapon rates were so low that it would take an enormous amount of Gachapon for the server as a whole to generate a single instance of one of the rarer items. The rarest items had a probability of roughly 11/1000000 to 67/1000000, meaning that for a top tier item, it would take roughly 10,000 to 90,000 tickets for a chance to get one (as an aside, please excuse my math on discord! I was off by a factor of 10, in case you were scratching your head at these figures). However, this is not the entire story - there are multiple rare items with these kinds of probabilities, which begs the question: if all items on the drop table are extremely valuable and rare, then wouldn't every ticket yield a rare item, even if it the chance of getting any unique item was very low? Exactly how many great items does gachapon actually spit out? What are the chances of getting any valuable item instead of a valuable item? To understand what Gachapon really outputs we to analyze the probability data as a whole:

First, lets take a closer look at how probabilities are calculated - if the chances are really as simple as we think they are in the data, than the total probability of obtaining any item from gachapon is 1 (obviously). In other words, they are simply calculated by generating a random number between 0 and 1. We begin our analysis by taking the data for only one Gachapon NPC, to keep things simple, and summing the probabilities of all items. The result:

Meaning that the raw probability values in our data do seem to be accurate, and that it was just calculated by comparing a random float to the actual probability value of the item. The fact that 0.68 is roughly on the order of magnitude of 1 serves as a sanity check: our algorithm of simply generating a number of 0 and 1 seems correct. So we know the probability of getting any item is roughly 68%. What does that mean for the other 32%? We can only assume that it gave absolutely nothing, or the dreaded food stamps (or, in older versions, presumably just random food). We'll call this 32% junk, because, well, it is, and move on to the other data: how much of the actual item probability is populated by rare items?

Before we continue, a quick note on calculation: I will be switching between fraction and decimal format as I see fit. This will improve readability by expressing probabilities as items per million.

First, we need to strictly define some terms. We'll call exceptional items items whose probabilities are less than 100/1000000, rare items items whose probabilities are between 101/1000000 and 400/1000000, uncommon items items whose probabilities are between 401/1000000 and 900/1000000, common items items whose probabilities are between 901/1000000 and 1600/1000000, and very common items as everything else. Notice how the ranges for each item "type" increase linearly - I have done this because the rates tended to grow like this in the data I saw, and packing them into constant intervals would result in a huge number of intervals with no (or meaningless) data. Now we see what weights each category has within the 68% chance of obtaining a non-junk item by summing the probabilities of items in each category. These are the total probabilities in graph form:

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From this data, then, we can learn exactly what the probabilities are for getting an item in each category, and most importantly, that the probability of getting an exceptional item is roughly .4%. Thus, it requires 250 tickets for a single exceptional item, and so it becomes clear that it is brutally difficult for anyone to get their hands on any exceptional item through Gachapon alone. Moreover, the chance of getting a specific exceptional item from Gachapon is low. With a total of 59 exceptional items, the average probability of getting a specific one is .007% - or, 1 for every ~14,000 tickets. The chance of getting a specific rare item (total of 374 items) is .02% - 1 in every ~5000 tickets. It is the large number of rare items that leads to such a high total percentage, but the average probability for each item is still very low.

With the entire community voting and donating lots of money every day, it would be a long time before the server as a whole would be guaranteed access to any exceptional item they actually wanted from Gachapon alone - for 59 items, it would take a rough total of 826,000 gachapon tickets for one of each to enter the game. These high-tier items are therefore so rare that it is hard to say that Gachapon has any significant kind of role in the game's economy, and in devaluing the work of players who are legitimately clearing content for items - in a vanilla-Gachapon MapleStory, the rare item output from real content would outweigh that of Gachapon so much that the system would not have any bearing on the rewards given by mob drops, quests, and bosses that would be cleared daily (if not hourly, or even by the minute) by players. Perhaps Gachapon's underpoweredness is what earned it the nickname "Gachapwned".
 

Exile

Respected Member
Respected Member
2. Paying to Win: The Gachapon "Advantage"

Nevertheless, I'm sure many would argue that, regardless of these abysmal probabilities, Gachapon remains a pay-to-win system if people can pay for even the slightest chance of getting anything at all. Thus it is still necessary to address this idea. This will not be a section explaining or defining such a loose term, nor will it attempt to convince anyone of whether Gachapon is pay to win or not. Instead, I will present that, whether it is pay-to-win or not, Gachapon simply provides little benefit for anyone using it other than a novice player strapped for potion cash. Why? As it turns out, even "exceptional items" just aren't that exceptional - unlike that of higher versions of the game, old Gachapon did not give any items that were out of the ordinary. I will simply enumerate the following pieces of information about our gachapon item lists:

Gachapon has no scrolls. PERIOD.
- No white scrolls
- No chaos scrolls
- No dark scrolls
- No 100% scrolls
- No 60% scrolls
- No 10% scrolls
- No town scrolls

Gachapon only has two chairs. Both heal less than half of what the Relaxer does.

There are few, if not none (haven't fully combed through every item) "exclusive" items in old gachapon. That means NO sake bottle, frozen tuna, etc.

There is also no Pink Adventurer Cape, Work Gloves, etc.

The tippity-top tier, exceptional items, with the lowest probabilities, are bog standard level 70 gear, with level 70 weapons being the rarest. Almost the entire gachapon table appears to be populated with what is pretty much just NPC gear.

A sampling of items from each rarity category is shown. Exact probabilities remain private information:
Exceptional:
-
Red Ice Queen
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- Mikhail
2kMri9l.png
(upgrades available: 7)

Rare:

- Adamantium Avarice
07ePhKL.png

- Studded Polearm (perhaps my groupings for rare and uncommon were not perfect?)
ljayFE9.png


Uncommon:

- Eloon
Y8gMU4K.png

- Bronze Guardian
LHfR0Ei.png


Common:

- Sky Shark

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Very Common:

- Power Elixir
kw7FnLz.png


Junk:

??? (TBD)

Clearly, the items from Gachapon simply aren't that amazing, and it is very likely that a random ticket would yield a piece of low level gear that was essentially useless. Anyone who attempts to obtain the best items will be rewarded with bland level 70 gear. In other words, old gachapon does not provide any items that are Best in Slot, overpowered, or exclusive. It was simply an additional source for common, low level gear and not much else.

Would paying for the privilege of generating one of the items shown above actually result in a noticeable example? If paying yields little advantage, can we still call it "pay to win"? Is there a line between paying for perks and paying to win? Hopefully, you all can answer these questions for yourselves based on the data here.

3. The Big Four

As you probably already know, we have posted a poll about what could be done to mitigate the effects of Gachapon on the server here: Official Gachapon Discussion. If you have not taken a look already, please do. In it, we outline four possible options for weakening Gachapon, and I want to write about the reasoning behind each, so that people can get a better handle on them.

I'll start by explaining option 3 because it is the easiest to explain: The stated goal of MapleGlobal is to create an exact replica of the original MapleGlobal experience from the early 2000's, which means keeping Gachapon exactly the way it was. This should be obvious to anyone whose been here long enough.

Option 2 is an offshoot of option 3: it seeks to keep the exact same experience as the original game, except it chooses to mitigate the amount of tickets that can be bought by donors. This option was not very popular at all for reasons I cannot understand - it feels the same as option 3, just with less "pay-to-win" power. A popular counterargument for option 2 is that someone, given enough money, could just "buy out" the tickets anyway, regardless of price. However, that isn't quite the case: no matter how much money somebody has, if the price of gachapon is doubled, only half the tickets are introduced into the game. Moreover, if we consider an extreme case where the price of a ticket simply does not warrant its benefit (say, 15,000 cash), nobody, not even those who could afford it, would consider it worthwhile to buy them at all. By increasing ticket prices we are not just cutting down on tickets, but also forcing buyers to think twice about buying them at all by making them less worthwhile.

Option 1 is the most similar to other private servers - it favors the most custom route out of the four, AND removes the ability to obtain cosmetics without donating. Four immediate benefits are that receiving tickets (and thus an advantage) for payment is impossible, the number of Gachapon items circulating in the economy will be low, the server will accrue lots of votes on GTOP, and not everyone will be caked in cosmetic gear. However, this option does come at a price: it feels nothing like the original game experience, and greedily forces people to pay for cosmetics. In normal circumstances that's fine, but since we are a private server the story is different: some may not feel as confident donating to us as they would an established company, and would thus be locked out of using the cash shop.

Option 4 has the same goal of option 2: don't alter the experience of using gachapon. The goal is to force donors to decide between gachapon and other things no matter how rich they are, and if they do decide to spend all their cash on gachapon, there is a hard limit on the number of tickets that can be purchased.

Many issues remain: in the heated debate about gachapon many people have voiced valid criticism and priase of these ideas. I hope that explaining the mentality behind all four has at least made their purposes more clear for everyone.

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Figuring out what to do with Gachapon on this server might be one of the hardest challenges we have ever faced. There are so many different views and angles on the topic and all of them have merit. Gachapon isn't a perfect system, and we know this. But everyone is still unsure of is what to do about it. Nevertheless, I hope this post not only clears the air on the issue, but also provides important details so that we can be more informed when discussing Gachapon and its implementation. Lastly, I want to thank everyone for their highly active participation in the community and for communicating their ideas with the staff so openly. We are a project founded on honesty, openness, and community, and I am proud that everyone here embraces these values. Thank you.
 
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Hykerion

King Slime
I think this is exactly what people need to see. Gach Isn't the monster everyone makes it out to be. Thanks for clearing all that up @Exile
 

Code

Tiger
@Exile Are you taking in account that Maple Global with a player base much greater than here (iirc) 85k+ active players in Scania alone. Meaning that a lot more people gached. Are you going to solve this by enhancing the numbers, or do you keep it the way it was to make it even less probable to get anything worthy of our NX.
 

Exile

Respected Member
Respected Member
@Exile Are you taking in account that Maple Global with a player base much greater than here (iirc) 85k+ active players in Scania alone. Meaning that a lot more people gached. Are you going to solve this by enhancing the numbers, or do you keep it the way it was to make it even less probable to get anything worthy of our NX.
Buffing Gachapon? Oh how the tables have turned. Honestly, I have no idea, but the current plan is to keep things the way they were.
 

Code

Tiger
Buffing Gachapon? Oh how the tables have turned. Honestly, I have no idea, but the current plan is to keep things the way they were.

Yeah but speaking of a ratio as of how many people used those tickets in GMS vs how many tickets will be used here is immense. It would only be reasonable to at least take it in account and debate it within the staff and see what is considered to be 'fair'.
 

NightClub

Explorer
Buffing Gachapon? Oh how the tables have turned. Honestly, I have no idea, but the current plan is to keep things the way they were.

As someone who doesn't even like the idea of gacha even existing, I can still see the need to buff it if required. Especially if we're going towards a cash based model.
 

Exile

Respected Member
Respected Member
Yeah but speaking of a ratio as of how many people used those tickets in GMS vs how many tickets will be used here is immense. It would only be reasonable to at least take it in account and debate it within the staff and see what is considered to be 'fair'.

Well the ratio wouldn't change much; the total number would be lower, but there would be less players anyway.
 

Emerald

Beginner
There are so many different views and angles on the topic and all of them have merit.

I'm really happy the staff is open and validates all side of the debate.

Lastly, I want to thank everyone for their highly active participation in the community and for communicating their ideas with the staff so openly. We are a project founded on honesty, openness, and community, and I am proud that everyone here embraces these values. Thank you.

I want to personally thank you and i'm sure most of the community is thankful for such a great team behind this server. I have full faith whatever route the server takes, it will be the best one based on much research and is logically the best route to go.
 

Nesharoo

New Member
It's nice to get a look at which items and at what probability they will be introduced to the server assuming gachapon stays vanilla.

I don't think the weakness of vanilla gachapon matters much when it comes to brainstorming a system for distributing tickets, though. We must remember that maplestory is a marathon, and that any extra (p2w) value obtained another player did not have the means to obtain could and will be compounded over many months/years/versions.
 

DrewDragoon

King Slime
My opinion is that the old gachapon as you've described it is indeed a smaller advantage than people seem to initially think, however it is still and could be a solid source of mesos from npcing these junk equips. In theory someone with hundreds of dollars could easily amass several million mesos which would provide a very clear advantage.

This wouldn't really be a concern if the server had been released for a long while, since people will have amassed equal or greater wealth from playing by this point. So, as long as gachapon is not available on release or for a timeframe after release (atleast a few months) the effects of (p2w) will be severely lessened to the point of almost complete irrelevance.

I've heard you intend to implement gachapon on the original version it was released (I forget which exactly) and if that is still the case and if it does in fact have no special items as you claim in this post then I'm perfectly accepting of this.

I'd like to also add that yes the ratio of "good" items will be so low it's basically nonexistent because of the probable low playerbase this server will have. (by the time gach is in the game anyway) However, I'd be against buffing gachapon odds. When it comes to keeping the integrity of the original vanilla Maplestory or changing certain aspects to be better I tend to go back and forth depending on the topic. This particular mechanic though, should simply be an option and unaltered. Especially considering all the gear found in gach is found elsewhere in the game. If you do buff the odds of obtaining the higher end equipment, I'd be ok with that too providing again they can be acquired elsewhere in the game AND gach is implemented after players could have time to farm these equips themselves anyway.
 

Judge

New Member
My opinion is that the old gachapon as you've described it is indeed a smaller advantage than people seem to initially think, however it is still and could be a solid source of mesos from npcing these junk equips. In theory someone with hundreds of dollars could easily amass several million mesos which would provide a very clear advantage.

This wouldn't really be a concern if the server had been released for a long while, since people will have amassed equal or greater wealth from playing by this point. So, as long as gachapon is not available on release or for a timeframe after release (atleast a few months) the effects of (p2w) will be severely lessened to the point of almost complete irrelevance.

I've heard you intend to implement gachapon on the original version it was released (I forget which exactly) and if that is still the case and if it does in fact have no special items as you claim in this post then I'm perfectly accepting of this.

I'd like to also add that yes the ratio of "good" items will be so low it's basically nonexistent because of the probable low playerbase this server will have. (by the time gach is in the game anyway) However, I'd be against buffing gachapon odds. When it comes to keeping the integrity of the original vanilla Maplestory or changing certain aspects to be better I tend to go back and forth depending on the topic. This particular mechanic though, should simply be an option and unaltered. Especially considering all the gear found in gach is found elsewhere in the game. If you do buff the odds of obtaining the higher end equipment, I'd be ok with that too providing again they can be acquired elsewhere in the game AND gach is implemented after players could have time to farm these equips themselves anyway.

Good post. I'd only argue the player base size. I think it's going to exceed everyone's expectations and hopefully the admins are prepared for that so we don't have crashes.
 

Neko

Explorer
My opinion is that the old gachapon as you've described it is indeed a smaller advantage than people seem to initially think, however it is still and could be a solid source of mesos from npcing these junk equips. In theory someone with hundreds of dollars could easily amass several million mesos which would provide a very clear advantage.

This wouldn't really be a concern if the server had been released for a long while, since people will have amassed equal or greater wealth from playing by this point. So, as long as gachapon is not available on release or for a timeframe after release (atleast a few months) the effects of (p2w) will be severely lessened to the point of almost complete irrelevance.

I've heard you intend to implement gachapon on the original version it was released (I forget which exactly) and if that is still the case and if it does in fact have no special items as you claim in this post then I'm perfectly accepting of this.

I'd like to also add that yes the ratio of "good" items will be so low it's basically nonexistent because of the probable low playerbase this server will have. (by the time gach is in the game anyway) However, I'd be against buffing gachapon odds. When it comes to keeping the integrity of the original vanilla Maplestory or changing certain aspects to be better I tend to go back and forth depending on the topic. This particular mechanic though, should simply be an option and unaltered. Especially considering all the gear found in gach is found elsewhere in the game. If you do buff the odds of obtaining the higher end equipment, I'd be ok with that too providing again they can be acquired elsewhere in the game AND gach is implemented after players could have time to farm these equips themselves anyway.



This is a good post, I agree with the whole situation of when gach actually does come out. People will already be so far ahead in the game with meso and equips that doing gach wont really be much of a benefit. I however disagree with the low chance of getting better equips. I think as time goes on in the server the chances slowly increase, not like a giant leap but just steady. That way people joining the server a bit late and want to catch up, so they have a means to. The player base will be pretty large indeed but I doubt everyone will come right away and if they do, not a whole lot of them will stay since they are probably used to private servers with like 3x exp or higher. They may be discouraged to continue, which is a good thing in my opinion that way only the committed people stay and all conform to one guild and or sub guilds. I think of it more as a family in the sense of helping and relying on others.
 
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