Wipe, hype or not?

[NoActualName]

Lmao non-wipers are all over the place. "Who cares that some people had almost no time to play, that's not important." Oh okay, so time lost is not important, got it. Also, you won't hear their opinions because they are long gone and probably won't even be voting here. Advertised rerelease hype would bring them back.

"But it would be such a middle finger to all the people who kept playing!" Oh, wait, so the time spent... IS important... Huh, weird.

"Shut up, no one cares about you wanting to be higher in ranking." Except some of the strongest wipe supporters came from the top ranks. Because they know they had an unfair advantage.

"There was no advantage gained by players who could still play." That's objectively wrong, whether you think that advantage is important or insignificant. A lot of people value the early race as the most fun part of a server release. So if you're so adamant that there was no advantage, and, again, the time lost isn't important, why does everyone starting over together hurt you so much?

I imagine you are talking about multiple people, as I do not believe I was contradicting my points. You will always find people who want the same thing, for different reasons. People cannot be generalized to a hive-mind. Just as there are people who want a wipe because they want a better chance at racing, and others who do not care about racing but want more people in the earlier zones of the game to play with.

 

[ChrisArcher]

Every single Archer not wanting a wipe, makes sense.

Those who want a wipe are always talking about fairness, but how is a wipe fair to those that had already spent time on their characters and don't want to start the hellish climb like what archers have to go through to even be remotely playable? Wipers have this skewed sense of "fairness" of what only benefits themselves because they have nothing to lose. You're going to tell me that it's fair that people wasted their time, and still are, only to have it be wiped anyways? I'm willing to let wacky freeze my account if a wipe were to happen because I don't want to go through early level archer all over again. It makes sense that most of the people that are ok with a wipe are mage and assassin players.

The wipe only benefits two categories of people: High level players that are going to be at the top of the leaderboards anyways, and those who haven't spent enough time to care if a wipe happens or not. There's a contradiction stated by numerous people who claim that "it's not a big deal to level up, why are people crying about losing their level 20 rouges xd." If that were the case, then why is it a big deal that some people are ahead if you claim it doesn't take that long to get there? What's four days of the server being up mean in half a year? Nothing. People will gradually join the server if it's running smoothly. You can't take away a bad launch by pretending it never existed and a wipe isn't a guarantee to get people back.

There is an understated importance of casual players in a communal player base. Many don't even know that there are even people asking for a wipe, and to take away their progress because it makes some people feel better about themselves is ridiculous, there would be so many people that give up afterwards. Losing players to get players back is not the solution. If the players that quit cared enough about the server and its well-being then they would have stuck with Wacky and not give up on the server. It just sounds to me that a lot of top players from other private servers just selfishly want to climb with their group of buddies because the server that they're playing on is either dead or they just want to start over and race each other. Do you honestly think that they care about anyone else but themselves? Why should we cater to the vocal minority, who cares about these guys if they basically don't support Wacky? I don't know why the MapleStory community has this weird obsession with top players as if they could either do no wrong or their opinion matters more than everyone else. To those who were unable to play as of late, it's unfortunate but it's honestly not too late. 4 days of playtime is just a drop in the water. Why take people's investment away? It just makes no sense. Why punish them for something they had no control over?

And to those who keep saying "it's the principle of it all, a server launch should be perfect," what do you think the meaning of "principle" and "integrity" is if Wacky was to go back on his words of not doing a wipe? Yes, the launch was messed up, yes people were able to play more than others, but bringing other people down to bring yourselves up is not the way.

 

[Jordan]

Technically it would not be a 90 player average for the past week, as the server came back online today with roughly 90 players. If you were technical, it would be far less than a 90 player average. If you want statistical relevancy then you would say we had an average of 90 players today/when server was up.

Let’s say MapleRoyals released last week and they went down for a bit then came back up. There would be like 200 players as soon as it’s up, why is there only 90. I’ve seen the server go on and off and haven’t bothered to play my hour a day because of the stability and I see the future is bad. I’m sure other people share my outlook.

 

[NoActualName]

Every single Archer not wanting a wipe, makes sense.

Those who want a wipe are always talking about fairness, but how is a wipe fair to those that had already spent time on their characters and don't want to start the hellish climb like what archers have to go through to even be remotely playable? Wipers have this skewed sense of "fairness" of what only benefits themselves because they have nothing to lose. You're going to tell me that it's fair that people wasted their time, and still are, only to have it be wiped anyways? I'm willing to let wacky freeze my account if a wipe were to happen because I don't want to go through early level archer all over again. It makes sense that most of the people that are ok with a wipe are mage and assassin players.

The wipe only benefits two categories of people: High level players that are going to be at the top of the leaderboards anyways, and those who haven't spent enough time to care if a wipe happens or not. There's a contradiction stated by numerous people who claim that "it's not a big deal to level up, why are people crying about losing their level 20 rouges xd." If that were the case, then why is it a big deal that some people are ahead if you claim it doesn't take that long to get there? What's four days of the server being up mean in half a year? Nothing. People will gradually join the server if it's running smoothly. You can't take away a bad launch by pretending it never existed and a wipe isn't a guarantee to get people back.

There is an understated importance of casual players in a communal player base. Many don't even know that there are even people asking for a wipe, and to take away their progress because it makes some people feel better about themselves is ridiculous, there would be so many people that give up afterwards. Losing players to get players back is not the solution. If the players that quit cared enough about the server and its well-being then they would have stuck with Wacky and not give up on the server. It just sounds to me that a lot of top players from other private servers just selfishly want to climb with their group of buddies because the server that they're playing on is either dead or they just want to start over and race each other. Do you honestly think that they care about anyone else but themselves? Why should we cater to the vocal minority, who cares about these guys if they basically don't support Wacky? I don't know why the MapleStory community has this weird obsession with top players as if they could either do no wrong or their opinion matters more than everyone else. To those who were unable to play as of late, it's unfortunate but it's honestly not too late. 4 days of playtime is just a drop in the water. Why take people's investment away? It just makes no sense. Why punish them for something they had no control over?

And to those who keep saying "it's the principle of it all, a server launch should be perfect," what do you think the meaning of "principle" and "integrity" is if Wacky was to go back on his words of not doing a wipe? Yes, the launch was messed up, yes people were able to play more than others, but bringing other people down to bring yourselves up is not the way.

That is a good point you brought up. I have seen it posted a few times that people want a perfect launch, but the thing is, it has already been ruined. You cannot revert a launch. It launched, it failed. Re-launching will not change that, except if the sole purpose of a new launch is just to have a wipe for whatever reason you deem justifies it.

 

[Robbery]

Please keep in mind that 100 players is a lot for a server like this, especially one that doesn't have multi-client. Lower version servers (IE 3rd job/non v62+) are always lacking in numbers by the time things settle.

Seeing that there has been 90+ people coming online instantly as the servers come back up during these issues is definitely a good sign, but don't let that fool you into thinking that the numbers would be soooooo much higher if it were stable with 100% uptime, because that's just not the case. Launch hype never stays, maple gamers stay even less so, even with pristine stability. Would it be higher, sure, would it be seeing launch numbers still? Most certainly not.

 

[Jordan]

MapleRoyals was a v62 server I mean they have thousands of players now? So your saying this is just another server that’s going to float around 100 players and never grow? Who would want to play that? Just a small community of people will play before another server is released with similar ideas and then hop on the next hype train.

 

[NoActualName]

Why do you assume that 90 people is not a good number? 90 people is quite a lot (assuming they are all unique users and not mules). While it does not compare to the numbers generated by top servers, there is no real reason to believe that it cannot get higher (or drop more). A re-launch or wipe will not, in all likelihood, generate more daily logins. Daily logins occur because of interest in a server - this is more about community involvement, more than anything else. Wiping seems like it would hurt community involvement more than it would help.

 

[Roflcopter]

I imagine you are talking about multiple people, as I do not believe I was contradicting my points. You will always find people who want the same thing, for different reasons. People cannot be generalized to a hive-mind. Just as there are people who want a wipe because they want a better chance at racing, and others who do not care about racing but want more people in the earlier zones of the game to play with.

I don't really fully get what you're saying here... but the point stands that wiping is the only way to completely even everything out in the face of differing views. It sounds to me that, with how much they love the server to stick around through (sorry wacky, not blaming you necessarily) the worst release many have seen, and how little time will be lost and how unimportant that time is regardless, non-wipers really have nothing to lose while the server has so much to gain by doing rerelease hype.

 

[ChrisArcher]

That is a good point you brought up. I have seen it posted a few times that people want a perfect launch, but the thing is, it has already been ruined. You cannot revert a launch. It launched, it failed. Re-launching will not change that, except if the sole purpose of a new launch is just to have a wipe for whatever reason you deem justifies it.

Exactly, I meant to add this to my initial post but completely blanked on it right at the end. You can't hide the fact that the server launch was bad, newcomers wouldn't even know that it happened. I'd also like to point out that a majority ruling is unfair in this scenario because, like I've said before, wipers have nothing to lose, so there's a high potential loss of players because their opinion on a non-wipe is being taken as a non-factor.

 

[Wipe Enthusiast]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO LETS GO BABY THIS IS DEMOCRACY IN ACTION THE PEOPLE ARE MOBILIZING AND CREATING GREAT DISCUSSION AMONGST THE NATION. LARGE IDEALOGIES CLASHING IN ACTION, PAGES OF DISCOURSE OCCURING STAY STRONG WIPERS WE WILL PREVIAL AND NOT STOP TILL EVERY LAST VOTE IS COUNTED. AMEN!

 

[NoActualName]

I don't really fully get what you're saying here... but the point stands that wiping is the only way to completely even everything out in the face of differing views. It sounds to me that, with how much they love the server to stick around through (sorry wacky, not blaming you necessarily) the worst release many have seen, and how little time will be lost and how unimportant that time is regardless, non-wipers really have nothing to lose while the server has so much to gain by doing rerelease hype.

Would a re-release actually give hype? Would the people that have left actually feel any more hype than they have when they left? Seeing as they left, would that not indicate a lack of belief that the server stability would get fixed? Why would they come back, and get hyped about the re-release, when they would just as easily assume that the server is unstable/broken/etc? Or would continue to be bugged.

 

[Robbery]

MapleRoyals was a v62 server I mean they have thousands of players now? So your saying this is just another server that’s going to float around 100 players and never grow? Who would want to play that? Just a small community of people will play before another server is released with similar ideas and then hop on the next hype train.

It's the nature of the game, fren. Maple royals is as successful as it is for a few reasons, assuming they don't spoof their numbers (which I have no reason to believe that they do).
1 - They play on a higher version which more people are accustomed to/prefer to play.
2 - They have a high player base.

But you have to take that with a grain of salt. While a large player base attracts more players, please keep some things in mind. Namely that because of their higher version, they inherently attract a higher base amount of players, which in turn increases the people who join because of said higher base. They also allow multi clienting, which artificially inflates the number by a quite considerable amount. How much? Hard to say, but you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that a server with leeching, hp washing, and 4th jobs doesn't have numerous mules online at any given time.

The fact is a lot less people enjoy the lower versions of mushroom game. Maybe I'm snowflaking here but I believe I'm someone of an anomaly of a player. I may be your resident hard stuck level 35 dit player but this is the kind of version I prefer. I think 4th job suts butts, but the numbers demonstrate that's a minority opinion. What I'm getting at here is that if I was looking for a 3rd job server to play, I would consider an online count of 90+ to be a lot. Perhaps I'm in the wrong as this is purely anecdotal, but I digress.

 

[Roflcopter]

Every single Archer not wanting a wipe, makes sense.

Those who want a wipe are always talking about fairness, but how is a wipe fair to those that had already spent time on their characters and don't want to start the hellish climb like what archers have to go through to even be remotely playable? Wipers have this skewed sense of "fairness" of what only benefits themselves because they have nothing to lose. You're going to tell me that it's fair that people wasted their time, and still are, only to have it be wiped anyways? I'm willing to let wacky freeze my account if a wipe were to happen because I don't want to go through early level archer all over again.

So you're saying it would suck to lose the time you and others got to spend... Guess we should just ignore all the people who COULDN'T have any time even if they wanted to, huh? Wonder which situation is more fair. Hmm. Guess that early time in a server launch IS valuable, isn't it?
"The hellish climb", oh please. I'll just ignore that.

It makes sense that most of the people that are ok with a wipe are mage and assassin players.

Completely baseless and almost laughable enough to invalidate anything you have to say.

The wipe only benefits two categories of people: High level players that are going to be at the top of the leaderboards anyways, and those who haven't spent enough time to care if a wipe happens or not.

We're not talking about the wipe benefiting individuals. We're talking about it benefiting the server as a whole. Having opinions is nice, but it's undeniable fact that the last two weeks have a been an uneven shitshow. Also, the high level players would be the ones needing to make up the most ground for a wipe and yet they still support it so... kind of invalidates your first point of wipers having nothing to lose, huh?

There's a contradiction stated by numerous people who claim that "it's not a big deal to level up, why are people crying about losing their level 20 rouges xd." If that were the case, then why is it a big deal that some people are ahead if you claim it doesn't take that long to get there?

Then why is it a big deal to wipe "to those that had already spent time on their characters"? This argument goes both ways, but at least with a wipe, everyone is even. [/QUOTE]

There is an understated importance of casual players in a communal player base. Many don't even know that there are even people asking for a wipe, and to take away their progress because it makes some people feel better about themselves is ridiculous, there would be so many people that give up afterwards.

If it's so incredibly painful and impossible to understand why a server that has had considerably less than 50% uptime needs to start over after being fixed, then yeah I don't know what can be said about them. Rerelease hype would bring back so many, and in my opinion, would be more people in the long run, but I know that's a moot point because there's no way to know for sure one way or another, so I don't bring this up. However, this point of "lost players if wipe" seems to be an obsession with non-wipers. Either way, there are people lost, but at least one path leads to an even start.

If the players that quit cared enough about the server and its well-being then they would have stuck with Wacky and not give up on the server.

So what does that say about the people who would leave if there was a wipe? I guess they're not too hung up on "caring enough about the server and its well-being" huh? Sounds like they care more about their individual progress.

Why take people's investment away? It just makes no sense. Why punish them for something they had no control over?

Oh, you mean how people were punished for the downtime they had no control over?

 

[Pole]

Personally all the instability has pushed me towards another server, but a fresh wipe would bring my interest back (assuming there won't be too much instability onwards).

 

[Roflcopter]

Would a re-release actually give hype? Would the people that have left actually feel any more hype than they have when they left? Seeing as they left, would that not indicate a lack of belief that the server stability would get fixed? Why would they come back, and get hyped about the re-release, when they would just as easily assume that the server is unstable/broken/etc? Or would continue to be bugged.

This is valid for some, I'm sure some people have lost faith in Wacky rather than the server itself. But a lot of people who gave up are now playing other servers and keeping an eye on this.

The fact is, no one knows for sure, or even a loose estimate, the number of people lost/gained in a wipe or a no-wipe scenario. The community doesn't know this just as much as Wacky doesn't. It's funny, you can get even the most staunch non-wipers to admit they know the launch was scuffed and it let some people play a lot more than others... so if you just look at that fact and ignore the moot point of arguing who is lost/gained, then it should be clear which answer makes more sense than the other.

 

[Roflcopter]

If a similar situation happens in the future, where some people get to play and some do not, due to server instability or what have you; would we wipe/roll back every single time it occurs?

I keep seeing this and I don't understand. The reason the wipe is valid is because IT HAS BEEN THIS WAY SINCE DAY ONE. Of course there should be no wipe in the middle of the server lifecycle if there was an extended time of stability beforehand. That's an entirely different scenario.

I would play regardless, but the simple fact is that wiping the progress made, will essentially have people waste the free time that they spent

Are wiped beta tests a waste of time? How many times did Wacky bring up the server saying "i changed something, it will likely crash again, I just need data"? The answer is, pretty much every time he started the server. Everyone playing was an essential test to him. It sucks that's the reality, no one wanted that to be the case, but that doesn't make wiping less viable.

 

[NoActualName]

This is valid for some, I'm sure some people have lost faith in Wacky rather than the server itself. But a lot of people who gave up are now playing other servers and keeping an eye on this.

The fact is, no one knows for sure, or even a loose estimate, the number of people lost/gained in a wipe or a no-wipe scenario. The community doesn't know this just as much as Wacky doesn't. It's funny, you can get even the most staunch non-wipers to admit they know the launch was scuffed and it let some people play a lot more than others... so if you just look at that fact and ignore the moot point of arguing who is lost/gained, then it should be clear only one answer clearly makes more sense than the other.

Yes, no one knows the actual outcomes of wiping. Some will join, some will leave - who knows how much either side. But then wouldn't the unknown benefit (if any) not be enough reason to wipe? A wipe does have legitimate consequences, in terms of throwing away time spent by players.

 

[NoActualName]

I keep seeing this and I don't understand. The reason the wipe is valid is because IT HAS BEEN THIS WAY SINCE DAY ONE. Of course there should be no wipe in the middle of the server lifecycle if there was an extended time of stability beforehand. That's an entirely different scenario.



Are wiped beta tests a waste of time? How many times did Wacky bring up the server saying "i changed something, it will likely crash again, I just need data"? The answer is, pretty much every time he started the server. Everyone playing was an essential test to him. It sucks that's the reality, no one wanted that to be the case, but that doesn't make wiping less viable.

Well beta tests are different from an official release in terms of expectations. Beta tests have an inherent expectation of data being wiped, or things not working. Once out of the beta phase, under the label of "release", those expectations change to no wipe.

 

[ChrisArcher]

So you're saying it would suck to lose the time you and others got to spend... Guess we should just ignore all the people who COULDN'T have any time even if they wanted to, huh? Wonder which situation is more fair. Hmm. Guess that early time in a server launch IS valuable, isn't it?
"The hellish climb", oh please. I'll just ignore that.

Love your tone, brother. You argue with teens all day or something? If you actually read what I typed, I even said that I'd be willing to have wacky freeze my account, and to add, if it means that people could catch up. Why would you invalidate that my progress isn't harsh when archers have literally half the amount of characters made for both mages and thieves? There's a reason why there's such a disparity in levels between the top 10 archers on the server, and it's not because of timezones. Rank 1 is 46 while rank 10 is level 31. There's a reason for that. Try the class out some time, maybe you'll understand.

Completely baseless and almost laughable enough to invalidate anything you have to say.

"Laughable" Why do you type like that? Invalidated because of what? Because you said so? Laughable. I posted this to have a side for non-wipers and you're trying to sound like you're above everyone else that's in the opposition. From the general chat alone, most wipers are either mages/thieves. I'm not hating on the people that play them or the classes themselves but it's an observation.[/QUOTE]

We're not talking about the wipe benefiting individuals. We're talking about it benefiting the server as a whole. Having opinions is nice, but it's undeniable fact that the last two weeks have a been an uneven shitshow. Also, the high level players would be the ones needing to make up the most ground for a wipe and yet they still support it so... kind of invalidates your first point of wipers having nothing to lose, huh?

So you're saying you know what's best for the server more than Wacky? And I don't even know what "the high level players would be the ones needing to make up the most ground for a wipe" means. Care to elaborate on that? Maybe it's the wording. The server hasn't even been up for 24 hours straight yet and you guys want to give an ultimatum. There hasn't been any time since the server re-opened to know whether or not there really is a net loss in player count.

Then why is it a big deal to wipe "to those that had already spent time on their characters"? This argument goes both ways, but at least with a wipe, everyone is even.

Everyone being even is the only thing that you've said that bears any weight.

If it's so incredibly painful and impossible to understand why a server that has had considerably less than 50% uptime needs to start over after being fixed, then yeah I don't know what can be said about them. Rerelease hype would bring back so many, and in my opinion, would be more people in the long run, but I know that's a moot point because there's no way to know for sure one way or another, so I don't bring this up. However, this point of "lost players if wipe" seems to be an obsession with non-wipers. Either way, there are people lost, but at least one path leads to an even start.

An even start doesn't guarantee that people will suddenly start playing by the masses. Like I've said before, you can't hide a bad launch, it already happened. Do you play any other games? Let me give an example. Street Fighter V had one of the worst releases a mainstream fighting game has ever seen. Years later, even with a rerelease of the game under a new title, the game's initial release is still tainted to this day and people still won't touch the game even if has improved by a large margin. No, they didn't get the people that were put-off back, but did that mean that newer players didn't start playing? They did. It's a matter of time. If people were already put-off by the release of the server, what's going to make them come back now? I'm speaking of people that aren't as entitled as you and the rest of the top players. New people will join, there have been even when the server was down. Just because your friends don't want to play anymore, doesn't mean that you're the only people who matter. Hold that.

So what does that say about the people who would leave if there was a wipe? I guess they're not too hung up on "caring enough about the server and its well-being" huh? Sounds like they care more about their individual progress.

Alright, so answer me this: if two months down the line the server was to go down again, maybe for even longer, are you going to ask for a wipe then?

Oh, you mean how people were punished for the downtime they had no control over?

What? Do you even know what the word punished means? They were unlucky, yes, I can sympathize with that. It's not the same as deleting everyone's account. Lost time is not the same as time made up.

 

[Tanto]

WIPE HYPE