Weird Design Decisions

[juniormints]

Not really a suggestion for the server, but Maplestory (especially on launch) was filled with a ton of questionable design decisions. One thing is the fact that Double-Stab is basically objectively worse than Lucky 7 in damage output, leading bandits go go the SinDit route. This was probably a balance choice since assassins would use lucky seven throughout 2nd job as well, while bandits would upgrade to Savage Blow. But even ignoring the fact that lucky seven does damage regardless of mastery, the base damage is still noticeably higher. Taken from Hidden-Street

Lucky Seven:
Level 20: MP -16; Damage 150% x 2 Hits

Double Stab:
Level 20: MP -14; Damage 130% x 2 Hits

Since they're both double-hit moves, lucky seven does a total of 300% compared to double stab's 260%. But what i found really interesting is that since the mana usage is lower for double stab, so I was thinking maybe double stab would be more mana efficient?:

Lucky Seven:
300 damage/16 mana=‭18.75‬ damage/mana

Double Stab:
260 damage/14 mana=18.57 damage/mana

So Double Stab isn't really more cost effective (excluding star costs)

But what about actual damage? Let's look at what a level 20 thief would look like, assuming both go dexless, because that makes things easier for me, and there's no level 10 dagger to make an even comparison. I'm taking damage formulas from hidden-street again, so correct me if they're wrong

Assassin: Since i'm giving the Bandit a level 12 weapon, I'll assume the assassin was able to buy wolbis from someone, and is still using the garnier, so they have the same WAtt:27:
Lucky Seven (Maximum Damage for 1 Throwing Star) - [((5.0*LUK)/100)*Weapon Attack)*Damage Percentage]=>
[((5.0*92)/100)*27)*1.50]=186.3*2=372.6
min damage for lucky seven is just half that, so the damage range is
Max: 372.6
Min 186.3

so that would be 23.29 damage/mp at best

Bandit: lvl 12 Triangular Zamandar (27 WAtt):
visible range is 15~96
Min:39
Max: 239.2

So looking at the max range, 17.09 damage/mp at best
That's pretty messed up. Even if you assume that the Assassin can't afford wolbis, and is sticking with subis, thats only a 2 Watt difference, dropping the assassin's max damage to 345, which would be 21.56 damage/mp. Also realistically, being able to get wooden tops by level 20 isn't a crazy concept, since Dark Axe Stumps are fairly easy to farm which would raise their range to 400.2, raising this to 25 damage/mp.
My next thought would be that, especially with 2nd job and on, Wizet/Nexon's vision for bandit was always make a bunch of low damage attacks that are cheap and fast, but in order to get the same damage, the amount of time to double stab would need to be at least 1.6x the speed (and that's assuming the aspiring assassin wouldn't try to get a meba, for the same attack speed bracket as the fastest daggers).

My only other thought is that with the bandit's general skill choices, they wouldn't have to max keen eyes, so they can max their attack skill later, which would probably make an bandit have better damage output for levels 10-15-ish. It also opens up the thief to invest in disorder, which is theoretically a good move that could let you train on higher level monsters. While at the highly optimized gameplay that anyone reading this forum before the private server launches, we might scoff at things like putting AP into health for a non-gimmick build or for HP Washing, but having a little extra survivability does have value, and it's really better than Threaten is if the enemy has less than 100 WAtt/WDef, which at low levels covers a huge portion of them (less so for attack).

I guess the moral of this is double stab is a bad move, which everyone already knows, but I thought it was interesting to look more into it to try and figure out why it's so bad. Did Wizet have something in mind I missed? What other weird/bad/good design decisions have you noticed? Am I the only one who cares about mechanics to this extent?

 

[Martinho]

Every first job, except Warrior, has a skill that is considerably worse: Magicians have Energy Bolt, Bowmen have Arrow Blow and Rogues have Double Stab. I know they are very different since Double Stab is a melee move while Lucky 7 is ranged, but thieves are the only class that can go either route. So my guess is they decided to have one skill of each type while still maintaining the "rule" of having one inferior skill. Going the sindit route actually makes a lot of sense if you view it that way.

That inferior skill, by the way, is a weird designer choice on its own. There's no reason to choose Energy Bolt over Magic Claw or Arrow Blow over Double Shot. So why do they even exist?
But in my opinion, the weirdest feature of all is the dice. From a gameplay perspective that is, because that simple dice feature probably made them tons of money in AP resets.

 

[juniormints]

As a hot take, I actually think that Arrow Blow isn't really worse; as a bowman your accuracy is hough that missing shouldn't be a significant issue, and double shot uses twice as many arrows, and more mana. Double shot does 130% damage x2 while arrow blow does 260%. Once you get soul arrow the arrow usage doesn't really matter, but if you buy the better arrows, you get more bang for your buck. It also lets you get another point into focus which, while not that much better, can be helpful for extending the buff, and adding a bit of survivability by adding the extra avoidability.

 

[Ostre]

double shot gets double the crit bonus though.
double shot:
130%+40%(average crit per line)x2=340%
arrow blow:
260%+40%=300%

plus double shot is more stable damage since you have two lines averaged instead of just one line.

 

[Knivingdude]

It hurts knowing we love the game in this state more than later versions despite trap skills being present because the later versions double down on these traps.

All in the name of nostalgia.

 

[Martinho]

It hurts knowing we love the game in this state more than later versions despite trap skills being present because the later versions double down on these traps.

All in the name of nostalgia.

It's true. Imagine Wacky taking out the dice roll. That would definitely cause a riot even though we'll all be clicking the dice for half an hour to roll perfect 4/4 stats. It's nostalgia.

 

[Kine]

It's true. Imagine Wacky taking out the dice roll. That would definitely cause a riot even though we'll all be clicking the dice for half an hour to roll perfect 4/4 stats. It's nostalgia.

Half an hour? I'll probably end up rerolling perfect stats accidentally and end up rolling for an hour

 

[Djessy]

Half an hour? I'll probably end up rerolling perfect stats accidentally and end up rolling for an hour

Oh the amount of times I accidently rerolled a 4/4 =( I can still feel it

 

[Ninja]

This was a really neat breakdown, regardless of whether or not the point was something we knew all along or not. It was a good, insightful read. Having mained Bandits on most of these nostalgic private servers, I have gone Sindit, and pure Dit. The Sindit definitely progresses easier and quicker, but being a double-stab dit has a few little quirks for novelty game-play - It's nice for training at crowded maps like pig beach where, as a claw user, you're punching a lot. Also after having done this over, and over, and over, maxing double-stab followed by mastery first thing in 2nd job (instead of Savage Blow) is a neat change of pace. Again, Sindit is better overall, but it's a game.. it's meant to be enjoyed and a change of pace can be refreshing sometimes. Just me thoughts.

 

[neophyte]

I would like to say that Double Stab has some very small utility, in that it is noticeably faster than Savage Blow. So if you barely miss the KO on some mob you usually OHKO or 2HKO, you can use a double stab to quickly finish it off. Granted it's probably not worth it in the long run, since you'd have to use an extra hotkey and you lose your grinding flow, but it can come in handy.

There's a lot of other odd balance decisions. Like what's up with Magic Armor (and defense in general)? Why are the weapon classes so unbalanced, when relatively basic math exposes said unbalance? Why did they make Holy Arrow 80 attack compared to Fire Arrow's 120 attack? I'd be satisfied with even 90 attack, to be better than Magic Claw ;_;

It does have some odd janky charm, but I wonder if these imbalances were oversights, or intentional.

 

[juniormints]

I do think imbalance can do interesting things to an economy. The fact that you can save a ton of money in the long run by being an axe crusader compared to a sword crusader. Technically sword is objectively better, but if you can afford twice as many scrolls/weapons, an axe might not be a good choice. Unfortunately this meta would exist if both weapons had the same expected value as shown by later versions (unlike current versions, where some weapons are just objectively worse) since people value consistency, especially with skills like panic/coma where its a single massive attack, and if you stab with an axe you just kind of get fucked.
As for cleric, I feel there are plenty of reasons for their damage output to be the lowest of the mages, but that's a big difference.
I think its also important to acknowledge that they did fix pretty much all of these issues, and they did learn, we are the ones who want it to stay this way. I imagine a good percentage of these issues with numbers were just based on attempts to have all classes played, and not have one class that everyone plays, with the intentions to rebalance the game as they needed to (which they eventually did).

 

[Knivingdude]

I think its also important to acknowledge that they did fix pretty much all of these issues, and they did learn, we are the ones who want it to stay this way. I imagine a good percentage of these issues with numbers were just based on attempts to have all classes played, and not have one class that everyone plays, with the intentions to rebalance the game as they needed to (which they eventually did).

I must have been out of the loop then. I was assuming they doubled down on the problem. Maybe I'll have to play official to check it out.

Maybe that's why I've been getting the "any class can do anything" vibe...?

 

[juniormints]

I must have been out of the loop then. I was assuming they doubled down on the problem. Maybe I'll have to play official to check it out.

Maybe that's why I've been getting the "any class can do anything" vibe...?

Yeah, you can max every skill for almost all jobs, so you don't really have to do any skill research until hyper skill passives, which is like 160? Even then it costs like 1m to reset those skill points, so its really not a big deal. But in general every class for every job has a mobbing skill, or a mobbing and a single target, where they can max both.

 

[Knivingdude]

But in general every class for every job has a mobbing skill, or a mobbing and a single target, where they can max both.

Thank you for explanation on the skill situation juniormints. As long as all classes can get by with their skills under any circumstance, It's balanced.

I might pop in and say hello to official during the anniversary on May then...

 

[Rex]

At least this one is not that bad of an issue because first job is fast even at 1x. I think its so much worse is 3rd job wk and sader compared to everyone else. Stuck with like shitty first job attack skills with only some minor buffs. Like who designed wk's charge blow? Remove your charge buff every use? Might as well not have the skills lolol.

 

[UsoRemix]

From my recollection, I don't know a whole lot about mages, but bowman and thieves there was a purpose. Double stab is significantly cheaper to use in grinding when leveling up a low level character back on the old version, if you wanted to immediately go into thief. Before HP washing, dexless builds, etc. people just chose a class and hoped for the best. My first job was thief, and I was an assassin. Let me tell you, I consistently ran out of money just training. I couldn't afford to use stronger throwing stars, because they were too expensive to refill. In fact, there were times that I didn't find any equipment/scroll drops, and couldn't sell enough items to get throwing star refills, and had to switch to a dagger weapon and auto attack some mobs until I had enough money to refill, or found a decent drop to sell. It was rough back then.

Once Maple got older though, people made mains, and secondaries. Dexless builds became a thing. funding the character became a thing. Once the initial phase of the game ended, and people had gotten enough money that refill costs were inconsequential, it was a totally different ball game, and double stab was completely useless. Nexon/Wizet didn't take into consideration the growth of the community, and how the value of mesos would diminish over time, making things like refill costs a nonfactor after a while.

 

[Rex]

But double stab isn't cheaper though. Due the the lack of mastery and lower damage you end up spending more money on pots because it takes more hits to kill. Max L7 is 16mp which would like you 1-2 mobs easy at ranged which save you hp pots. Double stable max is 14 mp (barely any cheaper) but the inconstant damage due to lack of mastery mean you likely use 2-4 or more to kill the same mob that require you to be at melee range so more likely to be hit and have to spend hp pot.

Same with bowman, cheaper mp sure but the even more inconstant single hit mean more likely you have to spend extra skill to kill something and thus costing you more mp in the end to kill a mob.

 

[UsoRemix]

But double stab isn't cheaper though. Due the the lack of mastery and lower damage you end up spending more money on pots because it takes more hits to kill. Max L7 is 16mp which would like you 1-2 mobs easy at ranged which save you hp pots. Double stable max is 14 mp (barely any cheaper) but the inconstant damage due to lack of mastery mean you likely use 2-4 or more to kill the same mob that require you to be at melee range so more likely to be hit and have to spend hp pot.

Same with bowman, cheaper mp sure but the even more inconstant single hit mean more likely you have to spend extra skill to kill something and thus costing you more mp in the end to kill a mob.

You're completely ignoring cost of stars though. I often ran out of money for stars. you can stand still for mana and hp. you can't for stars.

 

[Rex]

Subis are like 1 meso per star. Mana is like 2 meso per 1 mana. So even factor in subi cost into mana its still like 17mp vs 14mp where the 17mp skill are likely 1 shot and the 14mp skill will take double or more. Only situation you run out money to restar is bad money management to waste all money on pots otherwise mobs should drop more than enough to sustain stars if you sit for recovery. Which happens when we were all new but not likely now days.