Skill Balancing(Mostly for White Knight and Crusader)

Rex

New Member
I bring this up in hope that people will support this as I love white knight and my friend loves crusader but in a third job only server both classes are heavily gimped compared to the other 3rd job classes and especially compared to the king of 3rd job dark knights.

So lets start by looking at some numbers.

Dragon Knight: Spear Crusher does 170% x 3 = 510% damage to 3 mobs. Fury does 250% to 6 mobs.

White Knight: Power strike is 260% and slash blast is 130%
This is the damage of the charges w/o and w/ elemental advantage.
W/ Ice 286%/429% power strike, 143%/214.5% slash blast
W/ Fire 312%/468% power strike, 156%/234% slash blast
W/ Lightning 325%/487.5 power strike, 162.5%/243.75% slash blast

Crusader: Power strike is 260% and slash blast is 130%
Now combo attack description say weapon attack +220% so by logic of how all the other skills are worded you would imagine its a 2.2x multiplier but its not (or else 572% power strike and 286% slash blast make them even stronger than dk and we all know that's not even remotely true.) I believe its a typo in the description and I have checked files (v83 files but I don't think this skill was ever changed) where in the wz files its a 1.2x multiplier.
This leaves Crusader with 312% power strike and 156% slash blast. They also have panic and coma as finisher to add to the damage however I'm not sure how their damage is calculated exactly. It helps as finisher but its nothing amazing.

So from just looking at this one can see why the other two classes pale in comparison to DK. WK in the most ideal situation is still weaker than dk in any normal situation. And same apply for sader as well. I hope people can see why I would want to have white knight and crusader buffed a bit to make them much more viable class to play in third job and not feel completely gimping yourself for choosing them. All the other 3rd job are in a pretty good state beside these two and their the only two classes with no real third job attack skills.

Now onto the suggestion I have which I think is fairly simple at least for white knights.

White Knight: Make charge blow actually usable, make it so charge blow doesn't remove the charge. This would give wk a better mobbing skill that doesn't get punished for taking Final attack. Then WK will have power strike w/ final attack for single and charge blow for mobbing. That's all WK really needs to be a good class.

Another skill I would like balanced/fixed is the second job skill threaten. Both other warrior provide a very nice party buff (rage/hb) but pages are left with the useless skill threaten. I would like it to be made useful. Idk how much change dev are willing to make so I'll put in two suggestion. First suggestion is basically do what was done in later version of maple. Instead of -20 watt and -20 def its -20% watt and -20% def. This change is pretty useful when it comes to bosses and make their touch damage more manageable for squishier party members. Other would be change it so its like aran's combo tempest and made it a party buff that reduce damage taken. This one is a bit more out there so just throwing it in here.

Crusader: This is a bit trickier due to the crusader play style at third job. An easy fix would be a simple buff to combo attack where instead of like a 1.2x multiplier its like a 1.4x multiplier or something (exact number require testing). Another option is to buff coma/panic so their much more worth while to lose the orbs to use. This would definitely require more testing and input from more experienced crusader to get a good balance here.

On a side note another skill to be looked at is steal, from what I learned (and idk if its true for this server) is that most private server don't have a working steal. I really like the idea and I feel like if it actually worked as it description its a pretty cool skill to have especially farming difficult mobs. Say farming lycan you basically get 2 chance at drop per spawn and make bandit actual bandits XD

I really hope the dev will consider this as I personally really like the concept of white knights but their kinda insufferable to play in a third job only server. Even though 4th job pally is really weak 4th job but at least its playable and enjoyable where white knight and crusader is just endless suffering XD

Edit: Here the % damage of skills for the other classes at 3rd job. Idk how magic thing compare to % damage of other classes so ignoring those.

Hermit: L7 is 150% x 2 but they have crit and shadow partner. so
(150%*0.5+300%0.5) * 2 + (75%*0.5+150%*0.5)*2 = 675% L7
(180%*0.5+360%*0.5)+(90%*0.5+180%*0.5)= 405% avenger that hits 6

Bandit: 480% savage blow, 450% assaulter that stun and ignore def, and 210% band of thieves that hit 6

Ranger: (100%*0.6+200%*0.4)*4 = 560% strafle
160%*0.6+320%*0.4 = 224% arrow rain hit 6
150%*0.6+300%*0.4 = 210%/315% inferno hit 6

Sniper: (100%*0.6+200%*0.4)*4 = 560% strafle
160%*0.6+320%*0.4 = 224% eruption hit 6
140%*0.6+280%*0.4 = 196%/294% blizzard hit 6

This give you a feel too of how much stronger the other 3rd job classes are compared to white knight and crusader. Not to mention both thieves and archers have better mobility with haste, flash jump, thrust as well as fact into 3/4 class above are ranged. Mages too outside of priest i/l has a nice ice aoe that freeze and fp has the whole poison mist thing going for them along with teleport.
 
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Rex

New Member
the charged blow suggestion sounds pretty nice.
A bit of personal experience on this one. When I was playing unity I grinded a wk to 123. It was extremely painful experience along with my sader friend. Our damage was much lower than everyone else and our mobility was shit. When I finally max out advance charge blow and it became a usable skill it was life changing. Like I had damage for the first time and could actually grind reasonably. Which is all wk need a better mobbing skill. Single target wise power strike is workable. With FA its damage is actually not bad for single target.

DK is so strong because the meta of third job server kind revolve around killing like 3-4 really strong mobs so crusher is just built for this kind of situation.
 
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Quiet

Explorer
This will be a controversial take, but in my opinion DKs are the clear outliers when it comes to third job balance, not WKs and crusaders. The better solution in my eyes would therefore be a nerf to DKs. Nonetheless, considering the philosophy of this server I strongly doubt any balance changes will be made at all.
 

Rex

New Member
First that is a terrible idea, instead of nerfing dk its much better to buff everyone else to match because last thing you want is to make server like this even more annoying and slow.

Second I posted at the bottom as well that wk and sader aren't just weak compared to dk (I mean everyone is) but weak compared to everyone else too. I don't want wk and sader to be as op as dk but at least more on par with everyone else. I went to look up some videos of like 100+ 3rd job classes from back in the days. wk under optimal condition of having elemental advantage does about the same or slightly more damage than everyone else who just does that damage normally. Hermit, dit, ranger, sniper all match wk's damage while have elemental advantage so when wk doesn't their damage falls off a cliff.

I push for the chance as a suggestion because only thing that's really broken balance wise among the classes. I love wk but they are just more torture to play in these 3rd job server than its worth. I mean there also already peenix so unless there are some reason to come(aka like slight wk buff like my suggestion) there no reason to uproot all the effort i put into there already for basically same thing with slightly higher rate.

"RevivalStory is a private server that aims to restore the legacy of what the old Global MS (GMS) was, and also what it should have been."
I hope the last part means they will fix shit that was broken with old GMS aka some class balancing. I just don't understand why people are so against it when its such a clear issue. White knights are suppose to be weaker when having no elemental advantage but stronger in situation where they can abuse it but right now wk are WAY weaker when there no elemental advantage and on par when they do, just make no sense.
 

Quiet

Explorer
First that is a terrible idea, instead of nerfing dk its much better to buff everyone else to match because last thing you want is to make server like this even more annoying and slow.

Not really, individual balance is not directly tied to overall difficulty. I.e it is possible to nerf DKs but make the server in general "easier" and "less annoying" through other means.

Regardless, I do agree that WKs seem to get the short end of the stick (although this mostly applies before ludi), and are probably the second in line to consider when it comes to overall class balance (if staff intends to go this route)? Crusaders are actually in a good spot already - Max combo attack is a 140% multiplier, not 120% (which funnily enough is what you suggested)
 
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Djessy

New Member
White Knight: Make charge blow actually usable, make it so charge blow doesn't remove the charge. This would give wk a better mobbing skill that doesn't get punished for taking Final attack. Then WK will have power strike w/ final attack for single and charge blow for mobbing. That's all WK really needs to be a good class.

This is such a bad idea. Charged blow has 90% stun rate. Which would mean WK could spam Charged blow with 90% stun and would never get hit. Then might as well give crusader spammable Coma since its basically the same spell. Crusader needs to charge 5 orbs. WK needs to charge their elemental buff. Thats how it is.

If you actually played WK in a 3rd job server you would know that WK are not at ALL underpowered since Ludi is end game and WK destroys ludi.
 

Rex

New Member
Max combo attack is weird because the text say 220% so its wrong and i remember reading the wz file it say 120% but i guess that's also wrong.

As for dk nerf it just create more outrage than needed. I get their likely trying to keep thing as gms as possible which is why I ask for the bare min to make wk into a reasonably playable state and not touch anything else. This is like the small change possible to make it work without effecting too much overall.

This is such a bad idea. Charged blow has 90% stun rate. Which would mean WK could spam Charged blow with 90% stun and would never get hit. Then might as well give crusader spammable Coma since its basically the same spell. Crusader needs to charge 5 orbs. WK needs to charge their elemental buff. Thats how it is.

If you actually played WK in a 3rd job server you would know that WK are not at ALL underpowered since Ludi is end game and WK destroys ludi.

I'm fine with tuning down stun rate if its a problem. WK destroy ludi just about as well as everyone else does and that's with elemental advantage. Outside ludi their complete shit. The whole point of the wk class is to have a huge advantage when there elemental weakness but at this point they on par or slightly stronger with elemental advantage. Other classes hit as hard or harder than wk period and has a bunch of utilities such as haste, rage, hb, puppet, and being ranged.
 

Chishi

New Member
Max combo attack is weird because the text say 220% so its wrong and i remember reading the wz file it say 120% but i guess that's also wrong.

As for dk nerf it just create more outrage than needed. I get their likely trying to keep thing as gms as possible which is why I ask for the bare min to make wk into a reasonably playable state and not touch anything else. This is like the small change possible to make it work without effecting too much overall.



I'm fine with tuning down stun rate if its a problem. WK destroy ludi just about as well as everyone else does and that's with elemental advantage. Outside ludi their complete shit. The whole point of the wk class is to have a huge advantage when there elemental weakness but at this point they on par or slightly stronger with elemental advantage. Other classes hit as hard or harder than wk period and has a bunch of utilities such as haste, rage, hb, puppet, and being ranged.

Outside Ludi they're not much worse than other classes. Almost everyone at 70+ goes to ludi unless you want to go FOG where WK are still good with either elemental buff. If you get into the Beta you should try testing WK out. You will see it's actually faster than Crusader and many other classes like I/L, ranger and Xbow.

People who claim that WK are weak in a 3rd job only server have probably never played one. If anything the archer class and late game mages (except priest) need a buff. WK is fine how it is.
 

Rex

New Member
Outside Ludi they're not much worse than other classes. Almost everyone at 70+ goes to ludi unless you want to go FOG where WK are still good with either elemental buff. If you get into the Beta you should try testing WK out. You will see it's actually faster than Crusader and many other classes like I/L, ranger and Xbow.

People who claim that WK are weak in a 3rd job only server have probably never played one. If anything the archer class and late game mages (except priest) need a buff. WK is fine how it is.

Do we have any dates on beta yet? I would definitely like to test it out in beta and get some actual testing numbers to compare. Mages are difficult to deal with because the way their damage is coded is kinda fucked. All their damage comes from their skills so if you buff their skill their op as shit early on but if you don't they fall off a cliff coz they don't scale well.
 

Chishi

New Member
Beta is already out for a select group of players. Some of my friends are in and have shown me the damage and exp / hour for some classes and WK is actually REALLY good.
 

Rex

New Member
Beta is already out for a select group of players. Some of my friends are in and have shown me the damage and exp / hour for some classes and WK is actually REALLY good.
Ah sad that there no more open beta yet ;c Will they do more public beta or straight up release? Would love to see some videos of grinding in ludi of various classes around 90-100.
 

slimeslush

New Member
Ranger: (100%*0.6+200%*0.4)*4 = 560% strafle
160%*0.6+320%*0.4 = 224% arrow rain hit 6
150%*0.6+300%*0.4 = 210%/315% inferno hit 6

Sniper: (100%*0.6+200%*0.4)*4 = 560% strafle
160%*0.6+320%*0.4 = 224% eruption hit 6
140%*0.6+280%*0.4 = 196%/294% blizzard hit 6

This give you a feel too of how much stronger the other 3rd job classes are compared to white knight and crusader. Not to mention both thieves and archers have better mobility with haste, flash jump, thrust as well as fact into 3/4 class above are ranged. Mages too outside of priest i/l has a nice ice aoe that freeze and fp has the whole poison mist thing going for them along with teleport.

You can NOT call either ranger or sniper stronger classes than WK. WK has higher single DPS than both of these targets on most monsters. Archers do not have maxes thrust till level ~130. It is one of the last skills to max. Almost nobody will reach that level so saying archers have better mobility is not a valid argument. Sure they are ranged classes, but they have less HP and also LESS damage than the WK in ludi. I have to agree with the people commenting above me. WK is REALLY good in a 3rd job server and using a charge to re-use charged blow is really not a big deal since it a pretty reliable stun. Imagine if crusaders could non stop use coma, thats WK but with an elemental charge.

If you really loved the WK class and played it before I don't think you would be making this post in a 3rd job only server haha. In a 4th job server I'd agree with you WK might be a little weak. But not here.
 

Rex

New Member
Hopefully there is a beta open to everyone and I can test it out myself. I do agree my experience is with lvling wk in unity and it was extremely painful getting to 120 as wk compared to other classes. Maybe its just the later patch grind spot are terrible for wk due to the lack of any elemental weakness.

I remember there all the ranged classes just got to like snipe viking on safe platforms for some easy grinding. But I guess also the question is will content go past deep ludi because once we move out from deep ludi then the problem really starts.
 

slimeslush

New Member
Yes it's true. Ranged classes have safe spots, but WK has one of the highest single target damage in the game making them able to knockback almost any monster and thus not getting hit much either.
 

DrewDragoon

King Slime
I'm somebody who prefers to make this game better instead of preserving the mistakes and flaws so normally I would support your thread. However it's pretty obvious the philosophy of this server is to preserve those mistakes and so it is unlikely for any major changes to be made and even if they were made they would need to be considered across all classes and not just these two. It's obvious there are stronger and weaker classes than others and part of that imbalance makes the game what it is and while I agree we could make the game better I don't think that is the overall consensus of this community.
 

Sike

New Member
This is such a bad idea. Charged blow has 90% stun rate. Which would mean WK could spam Charged blow with 90% stun and would never get hit. Then might as well give crusader spammable Coma since its basically the same spell. Crusader needs to charge 5 orbs. WK needs to charge their elemental buff. Thats how it is.

If you actually played WK in a 3rd job server you would know that WK are not at ALL under powered since Ludi is end game and WK destroys ludi.
1.Comparing CB to Coma isnt fair at all. Coma does way more damage at the cost of having to stack 5 charges. CB damage doesnt come close to coma damage. I get the charge aspect of your point, but crusaders arent constantly rebuffing combo attack where as WKs have to rebuff a element each time to reuse cb.

2.Ludi isnt necessarily the end game for a 3rd job server. We can go aqua road and still be 3rd job server. If we do get to aqua road, then ,as rex mentioned, WK's are complete trash because there's no mob in aqua that takes elemental dmg(not including pianus but hes a boss not a farming mob). Yes WK can still farm deep ludi but Aqua rates are way better.

3. WK'S suck at bossing. Probably worst class to bring to a party.

4.Pages 3rd job skills lack diversity/usefulness. WK's get 3 elemental buffs which can only be used one at a time. They get CB a mobbing skill that isn't really spammable . The other 3 skills are so crap they're not even worth mentioning. So in total, WKs get 2 new abilities they can use while training in 3rd job. The one elemental buff they have to use and cb which they cant really spam.

I dont think making CB spammable is the solution (unless the 90% stun rate is taken out), but I also think WK's are lacking severely in 3rd job. Maybe give more mobs elemental weakness or attune WK dmg ratios.
 
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Sike

New Member
You can NOT call either ranger or sniper stronger classes than WK. WK has higher single DPS than both of these targets on most monsters. Archers do not have maxes thrust till level ~130. It is one of the last skills to max. Almost nobody will reach that level so saying archers have better mobility is not a valid argument. Sure they are ranged classes, but they have less HP and also LESS damage than the WK in ludi. I have to agree with the people commenting above me. WK is REALLY good in a 3rd job server and using a charge to re-use charged blow is really not a big deal since it a pretty reliable stun. Imagine if crusaders could non stop use coma, thats WK but with an elemental charge.

If you really loved the WK class and played it before I don't think you would be making this post in a 3rd job only server haha. In a 4th job server I'd agree with you WK might be a little weak. But not here.

By virtue of being a range class you automatically have better mobility than a melee class. This is huge on maps like vikings where attacking from safe platforms makes how much hp you have irrelevant. I'd like to see a reference on your claim that rangers do less dmg than WK in ludi. I honestly think rangers are on par with wks for dmg on any mob that has elemental weakness, but they obviously exceed WK dmg on mobs that dont have elemental weakness.
 

Rex

New Member
After considering it a bit more I do agree that CB spammable is probably too much, it good for balancing out pally at 4th but too broken at 3rd with its stun rate but I do still think WK need something more. The fact that they are complete trash outside of ele weakness is big problem and even with ele weakness its not like they are that amazing. Good but not the trade off of being so bad outside of it.

By virtue of being a range class you automatically have better mobility than a melee class. This is huge on maps like vikings where attacking from safe platforms makes how much hp you have irrelevant. I'd like to see a reference on your claim that rangers do less dmg than WK in ludi. I honestly think rangers are on par with wks for dmg on any mob that has elemental weakness, but they obviously exceed WK dmg on mobs that dont have elemental weakness.
Pretty much, just being a ranged class give them so much of an advantage in most grinding situation at least on there servers. Maybe later version where high damage mobs and more clutter maps warrior has some advantage but on these giant ludi maps ranger is such a huge fucking advantage. Damage wise at least videos i can find of that time I don't see ranger/sniper really losing out to wk on elemental weak mobs. Then wk is just complete trash outside of that. Maybe someone with close beta access can get some damage numbers to compare say all at lvl 100 or something in deep ludi.
 

VVhite

New Member
By virtue of being a range class you automatically have better mobility than a melee class. This is huge on maps like vikings where attacking from safe platforms makes how much hp you have irrelevant. I'd like to see a reference on your claim that rangers do less dmg than WK in ludi. I honestly think rangers are on par with wks for dmg on any mob that has elemental weakness, but they obviously exceed WK dmg on mobs that dont have elemental weakness.

I can assure you that White Knight has one of the best solo exp rates out of all the classes in Ludi, they are 3rd behind FP mage and DK. On top of this they are also the most cost efficient class and make the most mesos solo, it all boils down to Dual Ghost Pirates and I will explain why.

Dual Ghost Pirates is a map that very few classes can grind at solo, basically only WK, Sader and CB (DK can when there is no priest around but they lose mesos). It is the most dense deep Ludi map, has one of the best exp/hp ratios, drops Steelies and is fire weak.

White Knights are made for this map, single line damage determines knockback and since White Knight still uses slash blast they are able to knockback 6 mobs, barely take any damage and shred through them. On top of this they have Power Guard and Dual Ghost Pirates do not use magic attacks unless you jump, meaning the only damage you take is something like 600 touch damage every now and then. Their use of first job skills also mean that they barely expend any mana, and since for example an archer uses 3rd job skills they end up spending more money on pots even though they are standing on a platform not taking damage.

Meanwhile the top-down, narrow Dual Ghost Pirate map where you can cc from the bottom to get to the top, enables insane mobility for the White Knight combined with the previous points I made. You kill an insane amount of mobs leading to frequent Steely drops which you then have monopoly on and make an insane amount off of selling.

White Knights biggest weakness is pre-Ludi. The exp rates in el nath for a White Knight is horrendous as they are unable to oneshot Coolie Zombies until something like lv 90. Here you are entirely right about mobility. The lack of mobility and no elemental weakness on coolies leads to godawful exp rates. At lv 80 you are 2-3 shotting them and make something like a third of the exp of most of the other classes. Once you get to ludi you almost quadruple your experience at mid 90s while other classes like hermits, archers, CB and il mages barely increase their exp rates end up staying at coolies because they cannot afford to nonstop spam deep ludi.

So if you are going to advocate for a buff then it should be adding fire weakness to Coolie Zombies, but then i think you have to look into buffs for archers, for example strafe damage increase and lower mana costs.

The problem with White Knight is that it can get very boring to feel like you have to grind Dual Ghost Pirates all the time, but there is not much you can do about that. White Knights do get even more exp at Phantom Watch but it is very pot consuming and drops are garbage. I admit it sucks that they cannot grind at Goby, maybe removing the elemental immunities and adding an elemental weakness could be good but then you have to look at buffing other classes.

Ultimately all the useless skills that the White Knight has does not cripple it compared to the other classes. All this is based on my experience from OSM where I was the highest ranked White Knight.
 
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