Our Reworked EXP Table

[Z00M]

I did some reworks on the Exp Table by a % Reduce of the Required Exp tnl (to next level) over the course of the said lvls below and found that Progressive Exp like sensation when grinding might be the way to go and reward players as they put in the effort to grind.

Let's see where this discussion leads us to and what y'all folks prefer or have alternatives.
Feel free to post the rates (%) you'd like to see and why, I'll do the calculations and Update it here !

For actual before and after numbers, do take a look in "My take on it".

• Total EXP (lv1~200) = 38,703,363,662

Combo 2 (approx 39% overall reduction/ 1.75x Exp-like rates)
- 20% Reduce in the Required Exp tnl from lv 40 to 69 (1.4x exp feel)
- 25% Reduce in the Required Exp tnl from lv 70 to 99 (1.5x exp feel)
- 30% Reduce in the Required Exp tnl from lv 100 to 129 (1.6x exp feel)
- 35% Reduce in the Required Exp tnl from lv 130 to 159 (1.7x exp feel)
- 40% Reduce in the Required Exp tnl from lv 160 to 200. (1.8x exp feel)

• After Combo 2: 23,507,766,709 (New Total EXP), 61% of the 100% Exp.

Spoiler: Some considerations

• Bonus starts from lvl 40
  • in ur lower lvls we currently have 10x quest rate and KPQ and LPQ (in future) to help the latter in their lvling. seeing that theres a bunch of help to get to 30+, we shall focus on the tougher part of the lvls. (also, 20% reduction in these lvls hardly make any significant difference, so i dont see a point really to start here)
• Reward where Effort is done
  • at a moderate pace
• Lvl and Exp tnl requirement growth(%) relationship
  • take a look at cell C10 and head downwards Column C
  • as the lvls increase, the Exp tnl requirement growth(%) increases at a decreasing rate - Diminishing Returns-to-Scale
• PQs
  • LPQ (lv 35~51) will be added soon in the future (<1yr time)
    • Alternative grinds available @ Vic/ Orbis/ Elnath
  • OPQ (lv 51~ 71) shld be introduced later (1yr time)
    • Alternative grinds available @ Elnath - Coolies are good exp n mesos ratio).
• GrindStory begins from lvl 51 onwards
  • Long term preparation for the server I decided to exclude exp reduction till lvl 70, graduating from LPQ is considered and not OPQ (too long wait and EXP to Time spent ratio is not efficient to plvl, rng drops is pretty good but for simplicity sake).
• EXP reduction considerations
  • Bonus Events (Anomalies)
    • Usually range from 1.5x ~ 2x exp bonus, so the Exp reduction recommended wont be too much as it'll be further multiplied by the event.
    • Example: 50% Exp reduction (approx 2x exp rate) and when 2x exp event is on, it'd become approx 4x exp rate (is far too high).
  • 10/20/30/40/50 % reduction is approx 1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8/2.0 x exp

Spoiler: My take on it

• shouldn't feel demoralised
  • lvl 40 ~ 69 @ 20% Reduce
    • starts this early since almost majority would normally be around this lvl on a 1x server.
  • lvl 70 ~ 99 @ 25% Reduce
    • mental goal for players to hit in order to Max their new skill and shouldn't feel demoralised during this process as excitement of new skills only lasts so long (5 lvls or so). Most likely training in same map (coolies) till lvl 90+ (approx 2 third job skills maxed for aid in grinds for deep ludi).
  • lvl 100~129 @ 30% Reduce
    • motivate players to reach Pianus/Zakum
  • lvl 130 ~ 159 @ 35% Reduce
    • Zakum begins from lvl 135 to be an attacker/get exp.
    • this gives players an additional boost for the last bit to reach lvl 135 and also to retain players in server to continue doing daily/weekly zakum runs
  • lvl 160~200 @ 40% Reduce
    • Most likely for only the hardcore players who aim to reach lvl 200 or more damage.
• an Overall Reduction in exp requirement tnl % approach(to next lvl)
  • for simplicity sake and only significant differences can be seen from lvl 89ish onwards (of almost 60k/113k/170k exp difference in cell B92 to cell D92/E92/F92).
• 38,703,363,662 EXP required from lvl 1 to 200
  • using Combo 2
    • 23,507,766,709 in progress (New) Total EXP, 61% of the 100%.
    • 15,195,596,953 EXP difference, overall: 39% removed.
    • 39% translates to 1.75x like Exp rates
  • Which is a fairly good and reasonable discount (too good to be true).
  • any higher the % rates are than the above, would Half the total EXP.

Spoiler: Different ways to rework our EXP table:

• Reduce Overall required EXP to lvl by a % (eg: lv1 to 200)
• Reduce required EXP to lvl by a certain % from a certain lvl range
• Other:
  • Complete non-repeatable Quests for permanent Bonus EXP
    • (Doubt this will be considered, so I'm just putting it in here to store)
    • Either Activate bonus exp when lvl 100 and above or as soon as quest is completed, eg: 0.01% Bonus per quest completed
    • Completed 170 = 1.7% Bonus exp when grinding... and so on
    • there's approx 170 quests available in Pre-BB (excluding exchange and repeatable quests)

Your suggestions r much appreciated.

Spoiler: Updates:

• Added in lv 40 to 69
• Increased reduction % (new reworked total exp and difference)

Spoiler: Combo Archive

Spoiler: Combo 1

Recommend: Combo 1
- 5% Reduce in the Required Exp tnl from lv 70 to 99 and then,
- 10% Reduce in the Required Exp tnl from lv 100 to 129 and then,
- 15% Reduce in the Required Exp tnl from lv 130 to 159 and then,
- 20% Reduce in the Required Exp tnl from lv 160 to 200.
*no change to exp from lvl 1~ to 69

Spoiler: My Take on it

• shouldn't feel demoralised
  • lvl 70 ~ 99 @ 5% Reduce
    • represents mental goal for players to hit in order to Max their new skill and shouldn't feel demoralised during this process as excitement of new skills only lasts so long (5 lvls or so). Most likely training in same map till lvl 90+ (approx 2 third job skills maxed for aid in grinds for deep ludi).
  • lvl 100~129 @ 10% Reduce
    • motivation to reach zakum ready status
  • lvl 130 ~ 159 @ 15% Reduce
    • Zakum begins from lvl 135 to be an attacker/get exp.
    • this gives players an additional boost for the last bit to reach lvl 135 and also to retain players in server to continue doing daily/weekly zakum runs
  • lvl 160~200 @ 20% Reduce
    • Most likely for only the hardcore players who aim to reach lvl 200 or more damage.
• an Overall Reduction in exp requirement tnl % approach(to next lvl)
  • for simplicity sake and only significant differences can be seen from lvl 89ish onwards (of almost 60k/113k/170k exp difference in cell B92 to cell D92/E92/F92).
• 38,703,363,662 EXP required from lvl 1 to 200
  • using Combo 1
    • 32,954,379,334 (New) Total EXP required from lvl 1 to 200
    • 5,748,984,328 EXP difference
  • Which is a fairly good and reasonable discount for players who put in the hours to grind

Spoiler: links

Exp Table: Hidden Street
Quests: Hidden Street

 

[juniormints]

I feel this is ignoring almost all of the players that will be on this server, the last numbers I saw for TOVs ranking, less than 100 people made it to level 71, which would be the minimum level to have any effect on a player (as a reference, the ranking only went up to 3000, where they were level 25). This only really would end up affecting the super hardcore people, and realistically anyone who makes it to level 100 is already completely addicted to the grind, and have put hundreds of hours into this server; not someone who will quit after needing a few more hours per level. More retention of lower level people would help the hardcore people more by supplying a market for them to buy scrolls from than getting from level 160-161, and this exp curve would certainly not be friendly to people who won't make it to Zakum (which is most people).
The bonus exp for number of quests completed is a really cool concept, not sure how it would work balance-wise, but that could be a fun mechanic.

 

[Code]

Agree with @juniormints. People don't even make it to third job most of the time. I think level 30-80 is most critical. That's where exp should be highest. The second reason that junior also mentioned is that Zakum simply won't be done with such a low experience rate.

I already posted it in another thread but I will say it here too.

1-15 normal exp.
15-30 20% reduced from table.
30-80 50% reduced from table.
80-120 25% reduced from table.
120 - 200 50% reduced from table.

if you want explanation, refer here.

 

[xerta]

I think 1-50 should be normal and then after that starting to reduce exp needed per level. Since we have some quests that will speed up the early lvls + kpq means it will be fast annyways after 30 it starts to get slow but still fine untill 50 where the quest starts to become a bit more sparse and doesnt give as good exp as the quest you do in early lvls. Atleast with 10X quest EXP

 

[Robbery]

1-15 normal exp.
15-30 20% reduced from table.
30-80 50% reduced from table.
80-120 25% reduced from table.
120 - 200 50% reduced from table.

If possible, could you post the numbers of what this would actually look like similar to how Z00M did originally in their post?
As someone who isn't very well versed in the later levels of this game these values seem rather jarring, but my knowledge of the numbers and the experience of playing through the higher levels are very limited, so it very likely could just be a matter of my perspective.

Although 30-40 is the worst so just go ahead and reduce that by ~97%, thanks.

 

[Z00M]

I feel this is ignoring almost all of the players that will be on this server, the last numbers I saw for TOVs ranking, less than 100 people made it to level 71, which would be the minimum level to have any effect on a player (as a reference, the ranking only went up to 3000, where they were level 25).

I think 1-50 should be normal and then after that starting to reduce exp needed per level. Since we have some quests that will speed up the early lvls + kpq means it will be fast annyways after 30 it starts to get slow but still fine untill 50 where the quest starts to become a bit more sparse and doesnt give as good exp as the quest you do in early lvls. Atleast with 10X quest EXP

thanks, fair point about the lower levels and i'll update the lvl from 40+ (close to 51) soon and tweak the % reduction.

1-15 normal exp.
15-30 20% reduced from table.
30-80 50% reduced from table.
80-120 25% reduced from table.
120 - 200 50% reduced from table.

I think as mentioned above by mints n xerta, in ur lower lvls we currently have 10x quest rate and KPQ to help the latter in their lvling so lvls till 31 doesnt seem much of a challenge as compared to nearing 3rd job. (also, 20% reduction in these lvls hardly make any significant difference, so i dont see a point really to start here).

What im trying to do is to reward players for effort done. Theres no exp scaling here, almost as if random % assigned, with such high exp reduction, imagine if a 2x event is on, its like a 4x+ exp total. as you said, reduce exp by 50% from lvl 30~80 cuz of the burnout during these levels and then lvl 80 to 120 its only 25% reduce in exp. This demoralises players past this point at lvl80~120 (i think burnout is more significant here tbh, in both mesos for pots & charms, exp gap and higher death rates for when at deep ludi).

 

[Code]

If the OSM data was correct, I simply can not agree with your assumption. My suggestion is based of where people quit most. To have 30-80 with a 50% reduced table seems most plausible. OSM did a really good job to keep players by looking at the data, and I think Revival could even do better knowing where they came from. The data simply proofs that there is no demoralization (at that point) like you suggest.

 

[EddardStark]

If the OSM data was correct, I simply can not agree with your assumption. My suggestion is based of where people quit most. To have 30-80 with a 50% reduced table seems most plausible. OSM did a really good job to keep players by looking at the data, and I think Revival could even do better knowing where they came from. The data simply proofs that there is no demoralization (at that point) like you suggest.

Agree 100%. I think your table you mentioned before would be pretty good:

1-15 normal exp.
15-30 20% reduced from table.
30-80 50% reduced from table.
80-120 25% reduced from table.
120 - 200 50% reduced from table.

Otherwise my own idea of an exp curve would be to do like actual progressive exp so 1x to 2x (lvl 1- lvl 80) which is the opposite of what OSM did.

 

[Z00M]

If the OSM data was correct, I simply can not agree with your assumption. My suggestion is based of where people quit most. To have 30-80 with a 50% reduced table seems most plausible. OSM did a really good job to keep players by looking at the data, and I think Revival could even do better knowing where they came from. The data simply proofs that there is no demoralization (at that point) like you suggest.

well this is RevivalStory afterall, not osm.
The recommendation above is on a similar method but your rates are too extreme and random without justifiable %. as you said players quit at the 30 to 80 range, and theres a reason why, because past lvl80 there wasn't any bonus exp they could get due to the degressive exp bonus on osm. with your 50% off from lvl 30~80 and to only find out it dipped to 25% reduced after lv80, players will loose motivation to grind and enjoy the game content. Having long term plans for the server, what i suggested was a progressive exp like enjoyment (more % reduced the higher lvl u go).

Otherwise my own idea of an exp curve would be to do like actual progressive exp so 1x to 2x (lvl 1- lvl 80) which is the opposite of what OSM did.

this is exactly the same format that is proposed, juz that it stretches past lvl 80 than what osm did.

 

[Code]

It doesn't really matter what server this is. What matters is that we have to take data seriously. And I'm sure that wacky has numerous sheets of that. Either way, I disagree with your contention which is fine. I hope Wacky looks at the data seriously and judges where experience needs to be tweaked. I also liked that Junior mentioned that after 100 people are hooked. That's why I disagree that going from 50 to 25% reduces your motivation to play. I highly doubt that if you hit such a level you'll say ''f-it'' and quit. Point being, I think we should just wait till @wackyracer is here to confirm data and how he will deal with that. I like your thread nonetheless. It opens a good discussion.

 

[Z00M]

I believe data wasn't neglected and i agree its of somewhat importance.
However for a lvl 100 person to quit or not has many variabes in their decision. As we know, players do in fact come and go.

As admins have not yet set a clear goal in terms of exp for the server vision they have in mind, I'd like to remind that we shld try and approach this topic at a flexible manner. Do keep suggestions coming and much appreciated.

 

[Mentula]

1-15 normal exp.
15-30 20% reduced from table.
30-80 50% reduced from table.
80-120 25% reduced from table.
120 - 200 50% reduced from table.

I love your exp table with exception of 15-30 Only because of the 10x Quest rate.
id personally want more time to do all the quests and still have some time to do KPQ.
KPQ was for me one of the places where i made friends that stuck with me for a long time.
Im all for not having people quit early because they are feeling discouraged and i love that this discussion is being had instead of dismissing people for not being "hardcore" enough to play 1x

 

[Martinho]

I'm afraid too levels 10-30 will pass too quickly with the 10x quest exp.

 

[xerta]

I love your exp table with exception of 15-30 Only because of the 10x Quest rate.
id personally want more time to do all the quests and still have some time to do KPQ.
KPQ was for me one of the places where i made friends that stuck with me for a long time.
Im all for not having people quit early because they are feeling discouraged and i love that this discussion is being had instead of dismissing people for not being "hardcore" enough to play 1x

If you dont do the killquests you wont lvl to fast. Out of the 555k Exp you get from doing all quests 400k of that are from killquests pretty much. once you hit 30 and you have do all killquests then you will need to do 3 killquests to get one lvl so at that time its not worth it as much as if you would do it in level 20 still saving a lvl but 10X aint that much that it will speed up your lvling so much.

Its mostly the killquests that generates the most amount of exp.

 

[Mentula]

I'm afraid too levels 10-30 will pass too quickly with the 10x quest exp.

im afraid of this aswell. personally i really enjoy 10-30 alot. although the quests in vanilla have really bad exp already.

If you dont do the killquests you wont lvl to fast. Out of the 555k Exp you get from doing all quests 400k of that are from killquests pretty much. once you hit 30 and you have do all killquests then you will need to do 3 killquests to get one lvl so at that time its not worth it as much as if you would do it in level 20 still saving a lvl but 10X aint that much that it will speed up your lvling so much.

Its mostly the killquests that generates the most amount of exp.

Since you actually did the math im not too worried about how quest exp will affect the total exp gain

 

[Martinho]

Just to be sure, there's no disadvantage to making the first job advancement one or two levels late, right?
Reason for asking: the "path of [job]" quest would reward 3000 exp which would take you immediately from level 8 to 10 as a Magician or from 10 to 11.

 

[Z00M]

Just to be sure, there's no disadvantage to making the first job advancement one or two levels late, right?
Reason for asking: the "path of [job]" quest would reward 3000 exp which would take you immediately from level 8 to 10 as a Magician or from 10 to 11.

cannot confirm for both, prob best to await closed beta for folks to test it out!

 

[Z00M]

I definitely agree the EXP needs to be discussed. I'm just currently unsure if wacky will adjust them in the ways we discuss since he hasn't really given an indication that it is up for debate. Whatever his decision on the EXP adjustment is we will have to wait and respect his decision.

With that being said, if it were up to me I would do the opposite of what OSM did and have a progressive exp, starting at 1x lvl 1 and increasing to 2x by lvl 80.

The reason why I'd put it this way is that very shortly you'd get to the stage where you are receiving bonus exp to get through the harder levels. Under this model you'd be at 150% exp by level 40, and then 162.5% exp by level 50. Also getting to level 40 wouldn't be too difficult and keeping the exp lower from lvl 1-50 would make it so that people don't outlevel maple island, KPQ and LPQ too quickly. This way you would keep the appeal of the Old School Maple feel by not having players out-level content they enjoyed too quickly.

From my experience the game really drags from levels 60-80 for all classes. This is because at level 60 you have pretty much all your 2nd job skills maxed but won't receive any significant damage boost until lvl 80. Many assassins for example tend to quit at around level 70-75 because there is very little payoff to levelling as damage doesn't increase much but exp required increases quite a lot. I therefore think that 'more exp for more levels' would incentivize player retention and we know how bad burnout can be for players at all levels.

Also for those thinking 2x at level 80 is too high, from my own experience at around level 90ish solo grinding on 1x you're looking at about 8-9% per hour. So is increasing that 9% to 18% really that unreasonable? And the exp requirement keeps increasing drastically where after lvl 120 onwards it'd be like 4-5% per hour so I don't see how doubling this to 8-9% per hour is that bad. If the goal is for this server to kill Zakum, definitely the exp requirement from lvl 100-140 needs to be adjusted.

I also think that a 1x to 2x should hopefully be easy to implement, simple for the playerbase to grasp in idea/concept and easy to market/advertise under 'progressive exp' since people will see an old school server where they are incentivised to keep playing to attain more progressive exp.

I think this is a very reasonable solution. I wouldn't even mind leaving the EXP curve as it is. People weren't meant to reach level 200 anyway, so I don't see why we should reach it. I'm happy as long as we can do Zakum within 2 years, which is a very reasonable timespan considering 2x exp from level 80.

But at the same time we have to take into consideration that most people don't even make it to level 30. Are we okay with that?

I'm convinced that the nature of the game doesn't fit people quitting before level 30, especially given the progressive EXP incentive AND the fact that reaching level 30 is not hard at all with KPQ.

some update on the collective discussion from the community. @EddardStark @Kine dont mind me stealing ur quotes, feel free to post ur rates % and i'll update it up above

 

[Djessy]

Agree with @juniormints. People don't even make it to third job most of the time. I think level 30-80 is most critical. That's where exp should be highest. The second reason that junior also mentioned is that Zakum simply won't be done with such a low experience rate.

I already posted it in another thread but I will say it here too.

1-15 normal exp.
15-30 20% reduced from table.
30-80 50% reduced from table.
80-120 25% reduced from table.
120 - 200 50% reduced from table.

if you want explanation, refer here.

Even though I feel like this is the better option here, I feel like going from 50% -> 25% in the space of one level (80) is a little extreme. Yes, the data should be taken seriously just like you said, but the jumps in exp are too big to have them be on static levels instead making it slowly adjust like they did in osm with the 2x-1x exp from 10-80. I think it makes it feel much more nostalgic to adjust exp slowly. Having huge exp jumps makes it feel more like a "private server" even though it obviously is. A scaling (up or down, I leave that up to the devs) exp table makes much more sense.

 

[Olympia]

I like the fact that you are considering other approaches rather than just increasing the overall experience multiplier all accross the board, and I also thank you for being open to suggestions.

By now we all know that extremes are easy, and it is the balance that is difficult - And I say this because I loved the idea of modifying the EXP through quests (because I personally love questing) yet if you ask a hard-core mob killer, they might not think the same way. If you could somehow come up with a point system that could reward each side both questing and mobbers that would be awesome in my opinion.

You could essentially be rewarding people being active with an easier experience, rather than giving an easy experience to everyone just because. That rewarding feeling is what I personally find nostalgic, grinding endlessly was a part of it; sure. But not a very pleasant one.

I think it all comes down to what kind of people will be playing, and what they feel they need.