Dexless rogue & lukless mage

What will you go on launch?

  • Dexless Thief

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Normal Cleric

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Normal I/L Mage

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Normal F/P

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .

Xalate

New Member
This is a WIP! All tips & extra information is welcome!

It's been pointed out to me that i might have used the wrong formulas when it comes to magicians, and that lucky seven uses a different formula to calculate damage. This means that the damage range for sins are correct, but it doesn't reflect how lucky seven calculates the total damage (which i thought was just 150%x2 of a random number between your damage range). I'm not sure when or if i will update this guide, as i've done all the work i could so it would be done before launch, i'm sorry.

My goal here is to show people the differences between normal and dex/lukless. (Low luk F/P)

All information about weapon stats & damage calculation is from Wayback.Hidden-Street.net, 8th june 2005.

NOTE!
Since dex/lukless and normal classes can both use the same gear, except weapons, i will not take any other equipment than the weapon into account. All weapons will be with base stats according to hidden-street (Yes, this includes additional int / luk from said weapon).

I'm testing with Maple weapons aswell, but remember these will NOT be available for a long time.
The level 1 stats i use in both comparisons
STR 4
DEX 4
INT 11
LUK 6
I also assume you increase luk last, right before you get a new staff to maximize max MP gained per level, while still being able to equip all weapons at x levels.
(1 MP gained extra per level, per 10 int you have).
To calculate damage, i will use this formula from Wayback.Hidden-Street from 8th june 2005.

This is the formula (Pasted from hidden-street):
Max damage
Any Weapon: {[{MAG * 0.8) + (LUK/4)]/18} * Spell Magic Attack
Min damage
Any Weapon: {[(MAG * 0.8) + (LUK/4)]/18} * Spell Magic Attack * Mastery
Note: Skill Mastery's percentage and Damage Percentage should be converted to decimal points; ie: 10% = 0.1
1 INT = 1 Magic Attack (MA).
All damage is compared using maxed (lv20) Magic Claw with 40x2 Spell Magic Attack & 60% mastery.
So range will be per hit with magic claw, so total damage will be 2x that damage range.
lv 38:
Lukless

INT 196, LUK 6 ,Weapon = Wooden Wand (lv 8), 23 MA, Total MA = 196 + 23 = 219 MA.
Damage range = 232 - 392
Normal
INT = 162, LUK = 40, Weapon = Fairy Wand (lv 38), 53MA, Total MA = 162 + 53 = 215 MA
Damage range = 242 - 404
lv 40:
Lukless

INT 206, LUK 6, Weapon = Yellow Umbrella (lv 40), 52 MA, Total MA = 206 + 52 = 258 MA.
Damage range = 277 - 462
Normal
INT = 169, LUK = 43, Weapon = Hall Staff (lv 40), 55MA, Total MA = 162 + 55 = 217 MA
Damage range = 245 - 409
lv 43:
Lukless

INT 221, LUK 6, Weapon = Maple Lama Staff (lv 43), 58 MA, Total MA = 221 + 58 = 279 MA.
Damage range = 299 - 499
Normal
INT = 184, LUK = 43, Weapon = Hall Staff (lv 40), 55MA, Total MA = 184 + 55 = 239 MA
Damage range = 269 - 448
lv 65:
Lukless

INT 331, LUK 6, Weapon = Maple Lama Staff (lv 43, Normal), 58 MA, Total MA = 331 + 58 = 389 MA.
Damage range = 416 - 694
Normal
INT = 269, LUK = 68, Weapon = Evil Wings (lv 65, Fast), 80MA, Total MA = 269 + 80 = 349 MA
Damage range = 394 - 658
lv 100:
Lukless

INT 506, LUK 6, Weapon = Maple Lama Staff (lv 43, Normal), 58 MA, Total MA = 506 + 58 = 564 MA.
Damage range = 603 - 1006
Lukless w/out Maple weapon
INT 506, LUK 6, Weapon = Wooden wand (lv 8, Normal), 23 MA, Total MA = 506 + 23 = 529 MA.
Damage range = 566 - 943
Normal (No more luk, cus Evil Wings is fast)
INT = 438, LUK = 68, Weapon = Evil Wings (lv 65, Fast), 80MA, Total MA = 438 + 80 = 518 MA
Damage range = 575 - 958
Normal (Max luk for magicodar)
INT = 412, LUK = 90, Weapon = Magicodar (lv 88, Normal), 80MA, Total MA = 412 + 103 = 515 MA
Damage range = 579 - 965
lv 150:
Lukless

INT 756, LUK 6, Weapon = Maple Lama Staff (lv 43, Normal), 58 MA, Total MA = 756 + 58 = 814 MA.
Damage range = 870 - 1450
Lukless w/out Maple weapon
INT 756, LUK 6, Weapon = Wooden wand (lv 8, Normal), 23 MA, Total MA = 756 + 23 = 779 MA.
Damage range = 832 - 1388
Normal (No more luk, cus Evil Wings fast)
INT = 694, LUK = 68, Weapon = Evil Wings (lv 65, Fast), 80MA, Total MA = 694 + 80 = 774 MA
Damage range = 848 - 1413
Normal (Max luk for magicodar)
INT = 672, LUK = 90, Weapon = Magicodar (lv 88, Normal), 80MA, Total MA = 672 + 103 = 775 MA
Damage range = 856 - 1427
Luk = lv + 3
INT = 609, LUK = 153, Weapon = Magicodar (lv 88, Normal), 80MA, Total MA = 609 + 103 = 712 MA
Damage range = 810 - 1350
Coming soon, compares how int impacts max MP.
Pro tip, add int all you can, and luk right before you hit a lv where u need x amount of luk, to increase MP gain per level.
Damage difference is neglible between lukless/normal mage.
At lv 150 with just enough luk to use Magicodar, your damage range will be:
856 - 1427
Compared to pure lukless with Maple Lama Staff
870 - 1450
And just enough luk for Evil Wings:
848 - 1413

I haven't accounted for the speed of all the weapons. Considering maple weapons won't come out for a loooong time (may, or maybe 1 year? Depends on when the event's going to be held), only Clerics will be able to use Umbrella, seeing as Magic Booster does not work on Umbrellas, since they are considered 1h weapons, not wand/staff.

(If you're a F/P mage, you need to get Evil Wings, because your explosion will be cast at an incredible speed, only spell that works differently in terms of speed).
Note: Most spells are based on a cast speed, only one known exception exists: Explosion.
Explosion works oddly as a product of weapon speed + cast speed. Speed Infusion removes weapon class speeds first, then applies Spell Booster - however, Speed Infusion will not go below 4 weapon speed. Speed Infusion does not affect any other spells.

Spell Booster also increases weapon speed class by 1 or 2, so Evil Wings + Spell Booster = very yes for APQ.
Explosion
Booster2:
Fast (4): 1500ms (-120ms)
Fast (5): 1560ms (-60ms)
Normal (6): 1620ms
Slow (7): 1680ms (+60ms)
Slow (8): 1710ms (+90ms)
Booster1:
Fast (4): 1620ms (-120ms)
Fast (5): 1680ms (-60ms)
Normal (6): 1740ms
Slow (7): 1770ms (+30ms)
Slow (8): 1830ms (+90ms)
Regular:
Fast (4): 1710ms (-90ms)
Fast (5): 1770ms (-30ms)
Normal (6): 1800ms
Slow (7): 1860ms (+60ms)
Slow (8): 1920ms (+120ms)
Source: ->here<-
Max MP difference ...
Damage formulas
All claws will be the lowest tier, so damage can be higher than what i calculate by a small margin.
Max damage = Dagger & Throwing Stars - [(LUK * 3.6 + STR + DEX) / 100]* Weapon Attack
Min damage = Dagger and Throwing Stars - (LUK * 0.9 * 3.6 * Skill Mastery + STR + DEX) / 100 * Weapon Attack
To keep it simple, i'll use base mastery (10%), as both classes gets same mastery skill at lv 30.
The level 10 stats i use in both comparisons
STR 4
DEX 25
INT 4
LUK 37
I will not consider any STR Sin/Dit. They might be superior, but that's up to you guys to find out
clip_image001.png
.
NOTE!
I've made some comments about average damage being a lot bigger with normal dex than dexless, this was without the lv 30 mastery skill in mind. Taking that into consideration, the minimum damage difference will be a lot smaller, even though normal dex still has more Min damage.
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 162, Weapon = Garnier (lv 10), 10 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 10 = 25 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Total LUK = 162
Damage range = 20 - 153
Normal
DEX 70, LUK 112+1, Weapon = Silver Guardian (lv 35), 20 WA, Total WA= 15 (subi) + 20 = 35 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 1
Damage range = 38 - 168
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 187, Weapon = Garnier (lv 10), 10 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 10 = 25 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 27 - 175
With Ilbi = 33 - 259
Normal
DEX 80, LUK 132+1 , Weapon = Steel Avarice (lv 40), 22 WA, Total WA= 15 (subi) + 22 = 37 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 2
Damage range =47 - 208
With Ilbi = 62 - 275
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 202, Weapon = Garnier (lv 10), 10 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 10 = 25 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 23 - 189
With Ilbi = 34 - 279
Dexless w/Maple Kandayo
DEX 25, LUK 202, Weapon = Maple Kandayo(lv 43), 23 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 23 = 38 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 35 - 287
With Ilbi = 47 - 378
Normal
DEX 80, LUK 147+1 , Weapon = Steel Avarice (lv 40), 22 WA, Total WA= 15 (subi) + 22 = 37 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 2
Damage range = 48 - 226
With Ilbi = 64 - 300
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 237 , Weapon = Garnier (lv 10), 10 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 10 = 25 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 26 - 220
With Ilbi = 39 - 326
Dexless w/Maple Kandayo
DEX 25, LUK 237, Weapon = Maple Kandayo(lv 43), 23 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 23 = 38 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 40 - 335
With Ilbi = 52 - 441
Normal
DEX 90, LUK 172+2 , Weapon = Steel Slain (lv 50), 26 WA, Total WA= 15 (subi) + 26 = 41 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 2
Damage range = 61 - 295
With Ilbi = 79 - 381
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 287, Weapon = Garnier (lv 10), 10 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 10 = 25 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 30 - 265
With Ilbi = 45 - 393
Dexless w/Maple Kandayo
DEX 25, LUK 287 , Weapon = Maple Kandayo(lv 43), 23 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 23 = 38 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 46 - 403
With Ilbi = 60 - 531
Normal
DEX 100, LUK 212+3 , Weapon = Bronze Gigantic (lv 60), 30 WA, Total WA= 15 (subi) + 30 = 45 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 3
Damage range = 78 - 395
With Ilbi = 98 - 500
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 337, Weapon = Garnier (lv 10), 10 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 10 = 25 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 34 - 310
With Ilbi = 51 - 459
Dexless w/Maple Kandayo
DEX 25, LUK 337, Weapon = Maple Kandayo(lv 43), 23 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 23 = 38 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 52 - 472
With Ilbi = 69 - 621
Normal
DEX 110, LUK 252+4 , Weapon = Brown Scarab (lv 70), 34 WA, Total WA= 15 (subi) + 34 = 49 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 4
Damage range = 96 - 507
With Ilbi = 120 - 631
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 387, Weapon = Garnier (lv 10), 10 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 10 = 25 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 38 - 355
With Ilbi = 57 - 526
Dexless w/Maple Kandayo
DEX 25, LUK 387, Weapon = Maple Kandayo(lv 43), 23 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 23 = 38 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 58 - 540
With Ilbi = 77 - 711
Normal
DEX 120+5, LUK 292, Weapon = Black Mamba (lv 80), 38 WA, Total WA= 15 (subi) + 38 = 53 WA.
Bonus DEX from claw = 5
Damage range = 118 - 625
With Ilbi = 145 - 767
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 437, Weapon = Garnier (lv 10), 10 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 10 = 25 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 42 - 400
With Ilbi = 63 - 592
Dexless w/Maple Kandayo
DEX 25, LUK 437, Weapon = Maple Kandayo(lv 43), 23 WA, Total WA = 15 (subi) + 23 = 38 WA.
Bonus LUK from claw = 0
Damage range = 64 - 608
With Ilbi = 85 - 801
To reach 98 - 929, you'd need 8 more WA with Ilbi.
+18 WA with Ilbi, 115 - 1089
+28 WA with Ilbi, 133 - 1249
+35 WA with Ilbi, 144 - 1361
+40 WA with Ilbi, 153 - 1441
+45 WA with Ilbi, 162 - 1522
Normal
DEX 130+6, LUK 332 , Weapon = Casters (lv 90), 42 WA, Total WA= 15 (subi) + 42 = 57 WA.
Bonus DEX from claw = 6
Damage range = 141 - 761
With Ilbi = 170 - 921
With Ilbi & that same +8 WA, 190 - 1080
+ 18 WA with Ilbi, 215 - 1161
+ 28 WA with Ilbi, 240 - 1295
+ 35 WA with Ilbi, 257 - 1388
+ 40 WA with Ilbi, 269 - 1455
+ 45 WA with Ilbi, 282 - 1522
In other words, you need +45 WA with Maple Kandayo to reach same max dmg as normal dex, however you will still have lower average damage, since your Min dmg is lower.
Having more than +45 WA will make dexless w/Maple Kandayo have more max damage, and eventually more average damage aswell. But i'm guessing it's gonna take some time before someone reaches that amount of bonus WA.
90+
From here on out, you'd stop adding DEX, so the difference between dexless / normal would become bigger, as you already have more dmg with dex, than without.
Normal > Dexless without Maple Kandayo, always (haven't checked pre lv 30)
Normal > Dexless with Maple Kandayo at lv 70.
At lv 90 with Casters (42 WA) claw, a dexless with Maple Kandayo & Ilbi needs 46 or more WA to have more damage than a normal dex Assassin. Dexless becomes better after +46 WA with Ilbi.
Since equips can give +DEX/+LUK, it's also possible to equip claws, and have more total LUK than what i've tested with. So this would make the difference between dexless / normal even bigger, in favor of normal dex.
However, LOWDEX might still be better later on, i haven't checked, but this would require extreme funding, which nobody will be able to do for a looong time.
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 162, Weapon = Triangular Zamadar (lv 12), 27 WA
Damage range = 22 - 165
Dexless w/korean fan
DEX 25, LUK 162, Weapon = Korean Fan (lv 35), 50 WA
Damage range = 40 - 306
Normal
DEX 70, LUK 112, Weapon = Gephart (lv 35), 50 WA
Damage range = 55 - 238
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 187, Weapon = Triangular Zamadar (lv 12), 27 WA
Damage range = 24 - 189
Dexless w/korean fan
DEX 25, LUK 187, Weapon = Korean Fan (lv 35), 50 WA
Damage range = 44 - 351
Normal
DEX 80, LUK 132, Weapon = Dragon Toenail (lv 40), 55 WA
Damage range = 60 - 307
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 202, Weapon = Triangular Zamadar (lv 12), 27 WA
Damage range = 25 - 204
Dexless w/korean fan
DEX 25, LUK 202, Weapon = Korean Fan (lv 35), 50 WA
Damage range = 47 - 378
Dexless w/Maple Wagner
DEX 25, LUK 202, Weapon = Maple Wagner (lv 43), 58 WA
Damage range = 54 - 438
Normal
DEX 80, LUK 147, Weapon = Dragon Toenail (lv 40), 55 WA
Damage range = 72 - 337
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 237, Weapon = Triangular Zamadar (lv 12), 27 WA
Damage range = 28 - 238
Dexless w/korean fan
DEX 25, LUK 237, Weapon = Korean Fan (lv 35), 50 WA
Damage range = 52 - 441
Dexless w/Maple Wagner
DEX 25, LUK 237, Weapon = Maple Wagner (lv 43), 58 WA
Damage range = 61 - 511
Normal
DEX 90, LUK 172, Weapon = Shinkita (lv 50), 62 WA
Damage range = 92 - 442
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 287, Weapon = Triangular Zamadar (lv 12), 27 WA
Damage range = 32 - 286
Dexless w/korean fan
DEX 25, LUK 287, Weapon = Korean Fan (lv 35), 50 WA
Damage range = 60 - 531
Dexless w/Maple Wagner
DEX 25, LUK 287, Weapon = Maple Wagner (lv 43), 58 WA
Damage range = 70 - 616
Normal
DEX 100, LUK 212, Weapon = Deadly Fin (lv 60), 72 WA
Damage range = 124 - 624
Dexless
DEX 25, LUK 337, Weapon = Triangular Zamadar (lv 12), 27 WA
Damage range = 37 - 335
Dexless w/korean fan
DEX 25, LUK 337, Weapon = Korean Fan (lv 35), 50 WA
Damage range = 69 - 621
Dexless w/Maple Wagner
DEX 25, LUK 337, Weapon = Maple Wagner (lv 43), 58 WA
Damage range = 80 - 720
Normal
DEX 110, LUK 252, Weapon = Kandine (lv 70), 77 WA
Damage range = 150 - 786
Dexless w/korean fan
DEX 25, LUK 387, Weapon = Korean Fan (lv 35), 50 WA
Damage range = 77 - 711
Dexless w/Maple Wagner
DEX 25, LUK 387, Weapon = Maple Wagner (lv 43), 58 WA
Damage range = 89 - 824
You would need 70 WA to get 108 - 995, which is +12 WA
Normal
DEX 120, LUK 292, Weapon = Dragon's Tail (lv 80), 85 WA
Damage range = 185 - 998
With that same +12 WA, 212 - 1139
Dexless w/Korean Fan
DEX 25, LUK 437, Weapon = Korean Fan (lv 35), 50 WA
Damage range = 85 - 801
Dexless w/Maple Wagner
DEX 25, LUK 437, Weapon = Maple Wagner (lv 43), 58 WA
Damage range = 98 - 929
You would need +15 WA to get 124 - 1169
Normal
DEX 130, LUK 332, Weapon = Varkit (lv 90), 88 WA
Damage range = 212 - 1169
With same +15 WA, 248 - 1369
Normal > Dexless w/Triangular Zamadar always (idk pre lv 30, didnt check)
Normal > Dexless w/Korean Fan at lv 50+
Normal > Dexless w/Maple Wagner at lv 60+
Dex also gives higher Min damage, which increases your average damage.
I haven't checked how +WA affect this, except later levels. There it still proves that normal > dexless w/Maple Wagner.
Since equips can give +DEX/+LUK, it's also possible to equip daggers, and have more total LUK than what i've tested with. So this would make the difference between dexless / normal even bigger, in favor of normal dex.
However, LOWDEX might still be better later on, i haven't checked, but this would require extreme funding, which nobody will be able to do for a looong time.
 
Last edited:

Xalate

New Member
Ill hopefully finish it before release, but spoiler alert. Dexless sin < normal dex sin. (Without maple weapons), haven't checked dit yet.
 

Mowch

New Member
Awesome, that key information is pretty much all I'm looking for. Just considering if the dexless options were worth it in the end. Still will be checking out your in-depth info because honestly, it's just well put together and a good informative read.

Thank you again for your work!

Have a good one :)
 

Martinho

King Slime
It will take some time before Maple weapons or Magicodar will be available, so maybe it makes more sense to leave them out of the equation. Or make a separate section with the weapons that are available on release.

Moreover, nice guide!
 

Xalate

New Member
Well i didn't know when magicodar would be available, i just saw that it dropped from mobs in ludi, which i assumed would be out once people hit that level. The reason i have maple weapons in there, is so people can see how little it matters even when they come out. Some people might think they wanna go lukless and wait until maple weps come out. I also didn't feel like updating this in the future :p. Thanks for the good responses though!
 

Xalate

New Member
Idk if you guys get notifications or whatever, but the dit part is done, now i'm going to add Sin part, and then ill finish up the bonus mana from int part. Happy Mapling, Launch Hype, Wacky4President, Brother meme, or w/e.
 

Xalate

New Member
Finished with Assassin part of guide, not sure if i'm able to update MP difference. However as far as i've checked (& i might be wrong): As lukless you will have 68 more max MP at lv 40, 224 more at lv 70, & 684 more max mp at lv 120. Assuming you never get any luk at all, and start with 10 or more at lv 1.
 

Quiet

Explorer
I'm fairly sure that magic attack formula on hidden-street is wrong, and you can actually find old posts (dating as far back as 2006) stating that it is in fact wrong. (e.g https://i.imgur.com/QidSXK3.png)

The websites the supposed correct formulas resided in are no longer up these days, but we can approach a formula thread these old posts often refer to using waybackmachine. While this thread is from 2008, I dont think the magic damage formula was ever actually changed in those years. As far as my maple knowledge goes, I believe the (roughly) correct formula is the one noted as "experimental" on that page, so this one:

MAX = ((Magic²/1000 + Magic)/30 + INT/200) * Spell Attack
MIN = ((Magic²/1000 + Magic * Mastery * 0.9)/30 + INT/200) * Spell Attack

This is also the formula ayumilove uses here.

Needless to say, removing Luk from the equation, like in this ^ formula, removes the need for elaborate calculation. To get a weapon upgrade you always need to add more Luk (hence missing out on that amount of int) than the amount of magic attack you gain, hence lukless is always the play (unless you are an F/P intending to use explosion, then you grab Evil Wings for the speed).
 

Xalate

New Member
That formula doesn't seem confirmed anywhere, looks like most people are unsure, and it's also from the japanese version of the game? I'm trying to find some more information about it. Until i can confirm it, i'll probably not update the guide. If anyone can confirm it, that'd be great. (It seems kinda stupid that Wizet created a damage algorithm favoring non-intended gameplay, as you can see with dexless, however they've done some stupid shit too).
 
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