Class changes

[Code]

Hi,

After reading the class chances, I want to share some ideas. These ideas aren't meant to change anything, but rather look at the opinion of the audience.

Pages
So pages have a 20% damage buff. My concern lies that if this applies to the entire party, people will literally bring threaten mules to boss fights to kill a boss faster. And even if multiple clients or multiples work stations are not allowed, then people can just pay people to bring threaten to a boss run. I'm assuming threaten won't stack? Do note: I think that Pages deserve a massive buff, but not if it's going to be abused like a mule.

Archers
So I understand buffing the critical strike of archers. But buffing lower level archers make less sense to me. Archers don't level that much slower than top tier classes at all. It's the strafe that is the issue. Hermits typically deal 30~35% more damage than archers. Just boosting the critical hit isn't enough. I would personally suggest to reverse the first job attack skills and instead buff strafe by 10-15%. The Critical idea is good, but not consistent enough to deal with hermits or DK's.

Crusaders
Might just be me, but I feel they need a 5% boost. DK's are too good at the higher levels. I propose a 5% buff on Combo attack (from 220 to 230).

Chief Bandits
Great class but much slower than other classes. I understand the power of killing bosses with Mesos Explosion but CB's are a variety class. I think that if we buff Band of Thieves by a good margin, they will be able to use their skills more diversely. Perhaps from 210 to 230% is fair?

Other classes
I feel they're fine where they are. Even if e.g. F/P are really tedious to play up to 75+, they make up for it big time once you hit max Mist.

 

[Potatofarmer33]

Pages
Do note: I think that Pages deserve a massive buff, but not if it's going to be abused like a mule.

Mules will not be allowed on this server, paying someone for threaten would be the exact same thing as paying someone for Holy Symbol. I don't see the problem.

Archers
So I understand buffing the critical strike of archers. But buffing lower level archers make less sense to me. Archers don't level that much slower than top tier classes at all. It's the strafe that is the issue. Hermits typically deal 30~35% more damage than archers. Just boosting the critical hit isn't enough. I would personally suggest to reverse the first job attack skills and instead buff strafe by 10-15%. The Critical idea is good, but not consistent enough to deal with hermits or DK's.

Archers level slower at basically every point in the game. During the early game they're smacking everything because of the huge spawn most maps on low level monsters have and at higher levels they just get outdamaged by most classes and are slow as hell. This buff seems fine to me, they could use a buff at every point in the game.

Crusaders
Might just be me, but I feel they need a 5% boost. DK's are too good at the higher levels. I propose a 5% buff on Combo attack (from 220 to 230).

I could agree with this, even though Crusaders don't level that much slower than DK at aquaroad because of Coma and 6 gobies which basically one shots at higher levels this doesn't sound all too bad.

Chief Bandits
Great class but much slower than other classes. I understand the power of killing bosses with Mesos Explosion but CB's are a variety class. I think that if we buff Band of Thieves by a good margin, they will be able to use their skills more diversely. Perhaps from 210 to 230% is fair?

Chief bandits are NOT much slower than other classes. Actually; Monto who has had a 14x CB on ToV and a 15x CB on Phoenix has told us he levels faster than DKs. Chief Bandits might use a lot more potions and money but they do NOT level much slower so I don't agree with this one. Maybe reduce the cost of mesos explosion but that would be a really big risk because it could be abused super hard.

Other classes
I feel they're fine where they are. Even if e.g. F/P are really tedious to play up to 75+, they make up for it big time once you hit max Mist.

[/QUOTE]

I'm genuinely surprised you don't talk about I/L. I have played a 12x I/L Back in the days just before big bang came out and ice lightnings actually don't level as fast as people tell them because of their low base damage ice strike skill and slow cast speed. There are not many situations where 6 mobs crowd to take advantage of the mobbing skill and thus the best exp/ hour. Spamming ice strike on two mobs is super slow and bad EXP in general and since they don't have the best single target DPS this class is just so tedious at higher level it's insane.

 

[Dirty]

I also agree that archers / snipers problem is the 100% damage level 30 strafe.

I feel like some training areas / bosses could be reworked to add more elemental weaknesses would be the best “buff” to white knights and I/L. I feel like the variety of maps they can grind on are very limited in late game.

 

[Helium]

I agree with buffing combo (I read it's only a 1.2x multiplier which seems low) and/or buff rage
It would be nice to have a QoL duration buff for power guard (2x to 180s?)
I suggest making focus a party skill (unstackable with bless) so warriors can party with archers if there are no priests

 

[slimeslush]

I suggest making focus a party skill (unstackable with bless) so warriors can party with archers if there are no priests

Damn now suddenly we're going super custom real quick.

 

[Helium]

Damn now suddenly we're going super custom real quick.

I was hoping it would help prevent bless mules since there's more options, but then people might just make focus mules instead... (if they can keep them alive) but if buff mules were banned, I'd say party focus is pretty fair at 3rd job. Archers have no party skills, while party incentives were added.

 

[Kine]

How do we feel about making FA toggle-able? This was briefly mentioned in the discord by milksmuggler, and I think it's a brilliant idea.

 

[Rixon]

How do we feel about making FA toggle-able? This was briefly mentioned in the discord by milksmuggler, and I think it's a brilliant idea.

I really liked that on Unity. Big thumbs up

 

[2Spooky4You]

I suggest making focus a party skill (unstackable with bless) so warriors can party with archers if there are no priests

I really like this idea. Focus usually stays at lvl 9 until the upper 2nd job levels, otherwise you have to sacrifice critical shot or double shot which seems pretty dumb. Making archers more useful in a party when there's no priests around.

 

[Code]

Not going to quote everybody, so I'll just summarize the comments.

Crusaders
I understand that combo's do big damage, but that's not really how EPM works. The problems that crusaders face is that DK's hit 3 to 6 monsters at a time with consistent damage. Crusaders damage is inconsistent, causing them to be weaker in the early stages. That's why I think a buff is very deserving.

Ice lightning mages
This is a class I haven't played myself as much, but I've been going around asking EPM's from other v40 and below servers, and Ice Lightning mages make (According to those players) nearly the same EPM as DK's at 100+ But that could have to do with party exp. I don't know. So again, may be wrong here but I don't know about the EPM to verify whether they deserve a buff or not.

Rangers
It's too obvious that Hermits are the much stronger class. The AoE of hunters isn't even always better due to the odd positioning it requires whereas Hermits can just sit in a straight line. Strafe really requires a gigantic buff, but I didn't want it to come of as ''too strong'' Honestly, I feel a 20% damage increase on Strafe isn't even being generous. I love the archer class, but it's current handicap is personally discouraging me to play, so I believe that if Strafe was being buffed generously, more archers would be seen around.

Chief Bandits
So it was mentioned that CB's don't have lower EPM. Maybe not at 140+ But defintely at 70-100 (not accounting for ME leveling that costs significant amounts of mesos). At this stage (even if BoT) is leveled, it is just lacking too much damage. Perhaps make BoT so that it's stronger at level 1-15 but the same at level 30? It's just an idea.

So e.g:

Lv. 1 BoT current = 1 * 110
Lv 15 BoT current = 3 * 150
LV 30 BoT current = 5 * 210

Suggestion (please don't flame me it's just a random idea):

Lv. 1 BoT = 2 * 150
Lv. 15 BoT = 4 * 150
Lv. 30 BoT = 5 * 210

 

[2Spooky4You]

Ice lightning mages
This is a class I haven't played myself as much, but I've been going around asking EPM's from other v40 and below servers, and Ice Lightning mages make (According to those players) nearly the same EPM as DK's at 100+ But that could have to do with party exp. I don't know. So again, may be wrong here but I don't know about the EPM to verify whether they deserve a buff or not.

How about buffing thunder spear to make I/L's more viable for bossing?

 

[Code]

How about buffing thunder spear to make I/L's more viable for bossing?

Not necessarily a bad idea but, then you will also have to buff fire poison mages. And that would defeat the purpose of mages being a ''grind class''. Not saying it wouldn't work, but it depends what the servers want mages to be.

 

[VVhite]

I/L Mages are great up until the release of Ludi where they fall off hard. They have the highest experience rate during El Nath due to bains and will be even better with the tweaked party exp that rewards the highest damage dealer. I think its a pretty justified fall off considering how great they are pre Ludi.

CB's grind 70-100 is one of the best in the game with El Nath only, they are easily on par with Hermits. They are only overtaken by warriors at 90+ when Ludi releases. I would only consider some sort of BoT buff if it is set in stone that we will never get an Aqua release, which would for sure mean the death of the server in my eyes.

I agree Strafe should be buffed if they want to see people play archers at a higher level, possibly even reducing its mana cost as im pretty sure they spend more money only using mana pots than for example a White Knight does using hp and mana pots.

Speaking of White Knights I think the changes to threaten are completely unnecessary for the simple reason that White Knights already have one of the best experience rates/sustain out of all the classes in the game with deep Ludi. I would rather see an added elemental weakness to some mob in Aqua, maybe a lightning weakness on Squids so White Knights and I/L Mages can grind there.

 

[Potatofarmer33]

Speaking of White Knights I think the changes to threaten are completely unnecessary for the simple reason that White Knights already have one of the best experience rates/sustain out of all the classes in the game with deep Ludi. I would rather see an added elemental weakness to some mob in Aqua, maybe a lightning weakness on Squids so White Knights and I/L Mages can grind there.

The changes to threaten are actually REALLY overpowered. WK already have one of the highest single target if not the highest on ele weak monsters and this will make it even higher. We're gonna see a LOT of WK this server with this change, it wont even be a niche job anymore. So yeah I agree its unnecessary

 

[Senk]

I'm glad to see a healthy discussion! Keep it clean, constructive and I'm sure we will end up with a great result.

Though I do feel the need to mention again, that we do not believe in a perfectly balanced game. Meaning hourly EXP rates or DPS are not what we prioritize at all. This version of MapleStory was very flawed with classes that had their strengths and weaknesses. The point of our changes, like stated in the OBT patch notes is to simply make the less popular classes more viable and attractive to play.

Archers
So I understand buffing the critical strike of archers. But buffing lower level archers make less sense to me. Archers don't level that much slower than top tier classes at all. It's the strafe that is the issue. Hermits typically deal 30~35% more damage than archers. Just boosting the critical hit isn't enough. I would personally suggest to reverse the first job attack skills and instead buff strafe by 10-15%. The Critical idea is good, but not consistent enough to deal with hermits or DK's.

Archers absolutely level the slowest of any class. The 1st job changes are mostly aimed to give them an easier time leveling. Critical chance is a direct buff to their DPS. You have to remember that Strafe can critically strike 4(!) times, whereas Hermits have a copycat ability, meaning if the first shot crits, the Shadow Partner damage crits as well but for 50% damage.

As a little teaser.. I have plans to make a distinction between Snipers and Rangers. Snipers will be AOE crowd-control and burst oriented, whereas Rangers will be more agile and DPS oriented. More on that in the future though, because right now we have the Official Release to prepare for.

The changes to threaten are actually REALLY overpowered. WK already have one of the highest single target if not the highest on ele weak monsters and this will make it even higher. We're gonna see a LOT of WK this server with this change, it wont even be a niche job anymore. So yeah I agree its unnecessary

I agree Threaten is absurd! I want to properly see how it affects the gameplay for OBT, before I put a cooldown on that thing. Notice how that is the reason why the debuff duration is only 30 seconds. It's meant to be a tool for PQs and later stages of the game.. Think Alishar, Papulatus and Zakum.

 

[Potatofarmer33]

I agree Threaten is absurd! I want to properly see how it affects the gameplay for OBT, before I put a cooldown on that thing. Notice how that is the reason why the debuff duration is only 30 seconds.

True, it's good to test this in OBT first, but then again. Will you really see a white knight using threaten? We might see a 4x page using threaten here and there but that's not really that big of a deal. A white knight using threaten in ludi will be the biggest concern. The 20% damage buff during 2nd job won't even be that much of a deal since fighters get rage and it might put them on a more equal ground. However using elemental charges and charged blow in Ludi is where the real power from this buff will be shown.

 

[Dirty]

Not going to quote everybody, so I'll just summarize the comments.

Crusaders
I understand that combo's do big damage, but that's not really how EPM works. The problems that crusaders face is that DK's hit 3 to 6 monsters at a time with consistent damage. Crusaders damage is inconsistent, causing them to be weaker in the early stages. That's why I think a buff is very deserving.

I also agree that Crusaders fall off later in the game due to the low damage they have when charging up combo. Even with full orbs charged a power strike only tickles.

 

[Potatofarmer33]

I also agree that Crusaders fall off later in the game due to the low damage they have when charging up combo. Even with full orbs charged a power strike only tickles.

No different from a WK.

 

[Code]

@Senk
Would be nice if some random solo EPH (exp per hour) testing was done by GM's giving them some relevant gear to do the tests, and see how unbalanced things actually are. So far things are only ruled from experience and opinion.

I'm saying this because the goal isn't to perfectly balance each class for each scenario, so at least look at the EPH to decide things?

 

[Potatofarmer33]

I have personally done some EXP / hour testing and I know Milksmuggler has done so too. Maybe he can release his stats. I have not really written anything down. I just know that ranger, hermit and I/L were lower exp / hour than all warrior classes and xbow. Chief bandit was pretty fast too but my control wasn't that good as I have never played one so it might be even better than I did making it about top 3 fastest levelers. All warriors hit one of the faster exp / hour rates, however I did only try exp / hour at Vikings in ludi as that will be one of the main late game spots to grind as aqua probably isn't being released.